View Full Version : action vs someday
Hello everybody,
i have an issue to distinguish if an action item goes to "someday" or on the "action list".
If something is actionable ASAP (not hardlandscape) and it needs more than ~2 min it goes on the appropriate context list, right?
What does ASAP within GTD mean?
I have the problem, that I have lots of action items which I determined to do As-Soon-As-I-find-the-right-time-and-context.
Thus, the lists gets longer and longer...
How do you distinct if an item goes to the someday or the actionlist?
Do you have an limited amount of action items per list - everything else to "someday"?
Do you have always your workload (timewise) in mind, so that you can decide by "feeling": oops, this has to wait - put it to "someday"?
Thanks! Jens
kkuja
04-29-2011, 04:00 AM
Hello everybody,
i have an issue to distinguish if an action item goes to "someday" or on the "action list".
If something is actionable ASAP (not hardlandscape) and it needs more than ~2 min it goes on the appropriate context list, right?
Right.
What does ASAP within GTD mean?
Good question. I'm waiting forward to hear opinions about this.
I have the problem, that I have lots of action items which I determined to do As-Soon-As-I-find-the-right-time-and-context.
Thus, the lists gets longer and longer...
How do you distinct if an item goes to the someday or the actionlist?
Do you have an limited amount of action items per list - everything else to "someday"?
Do you have always your workload (timewise) in mind, so that you can decide by "feeling": oops, this has to wait - put it to "someday"?
I have understood Someday/maybe is for projects, not actions. If project goes to someday/maybe, then it is not actioned. Which is kind of logical, as it helps to keep your next actions lists tidier.
I have next actions hanging around my nex actions list, which haven't had my attention since I figured them out. Some are for longer term projects, some are just not so important. Maybe I should delete them in next weekly review, and park their projects in someday/maybe (as they probably are not that important).
Oogiem
04-29-2011, 05:50 AM
If something is actionable ASAP (not hardlandscape) and it needs more than ~2 min it goes on the appropriate context list, right?
Correct
What does ASAP within GTD mean?
As soon as you can get to it given the constraints of context, energy, time and priority.
How do you distinct if an item goes to the someday or the actionlist?
Do you have an limited amount of action items per list - everything else to "someday"?
Do you have always your workload (timewise) in mind, so that you can decide by "feeling": oops, this has to wait - put it to "someday"?
I don't put actions on Someday/Maybe only projects. I don't try to limit my active work projects other than to be ones I think I might actually get done in the next 3 months so yes I am looking at workload and for me the season. Some projects can only be done in a certain season.
I do limit how many active projects I can have in each of my major hobby areas. This helps prevent startitis in hobby things. I try to only have one spinning project, 1 knitting project, 1 scrapbook project, 1 sewing project, 1 quilting project, 1 photography project etc. active at any given time. I'm not perfect, for example I currently have 2 knitting projects active, one I can do while having beer at the brewery and one that requires more thought to work on. The limits have enabled me to finish a bunch of my hobby things which is always a good feeling.
As David Allen says:
you can feel good about not doing something only as long as you know what you're not doing (not exact words).
So imo it's best to keep everything you want to do as next actions. Someday/maybe is for stuff you're not sure if you want to do.
If the list is big then that's great, you have lot's of options to choose from for doing predifiened work.
Everything we do (except sleep, eat and etc.) falls into 3 categories
• Doing pre*defined work
• Doing work as it shows up
• Defining your work
Gtd is not about actually getting everything done, it's actually more about feeling good about not getting most things done :D
Getting everything done is impossible anyway but with gtd in every moment you make the best choice you can about what to do. The more options you have the better, ideally you want to capture all open loops. Of course you can always say NO to stuff or trash stuff from the system during review
graphicdetails
04-29-2011, 05:50 PM
I don't agree that S/M is for projects only. S/M is for anything that you might want to do, or plan to do someday. Whether it be a project or one action.
Just because I have one simple action, it does not mean I want it to be a next action. It may be simply something I want to get out of my head and park it for someday (maybe).
I don't agree that S/M is for projects only. S/M is for anything that you might want to do, or plan to do someday. Whether it be a project or one action.
Just because I have one simple action, it does not mean I want it to be a next action. It may be simply something I want to get out of my head and park it for someday (maybe).
I would agree in principle. An example that comes to mind is subscribing to a magasine. The action itself only takes some minutes on the internet, but being willing to pay and read it might not occur until the future, so I may want to park it.
Looking through my own SDMB list though, they are all projects. I'm not sure that it really matters in the end.
Oogiem
04-30-2011, 12:27 PM
I would agree in principle. An example that comes to mind is subscribing to a magazine.
That is a project to me. It's going to take more than one step to complete.
1. Decide if I have the time/money/attention to read this magazine regularly.
2. Locate the web site for subscription options and costs.
3. Decide whether to get an electronic subscription or a paper one (if there are options)
4. Enter in subscription details and order it.
5. Add magazine to my year end checklist to see if I still want to continue to get it in future.
What might be on my S/M list is the project "Subscribe to Magazine X" and once I decide to do it I may fill out the rest of the actions or I might decide to go ahead and add them when I first create the project on my S/M list. In any case it's really a project.
I have an area of focus called reading.
Inactive or Someday/Maybe projects on it can be authors names, book titles etc. Why are they all projects? Because in all cases there is going to be more than a single step done to end up with the book in my hands ready to read. A typical one might be See if book X is avail on kindle. If yes download sample and schedule reading my samples. If no decide if it's worth the shelf space as a paper book or not. Where I go from there depends on the results of the previous actions but it's still a project.
Oogiem
04-30-2011, 12:29 PM
S/M is for anything that you might want to do, or plan to do someday.
Can you give me an example of a simple action that you would put on Someday/Maybe? I've not ever really had any of those that are not part of some project.
Suelin23
04-30-2011, 03:09 PM
What does ASAP within GTD mean? How do you distinct if an item goes to the someday or the actionlist?
Do you have an limited amount of action items per list - everything else to "someday"?
Do you have always your workload (timewise) in mind, so that you can decide by "feeling": oops, this has to wait - put it to "someday"?
If someone asks me to do something ASAP, then I interpret this as they will be following up with me if I don't do it. This means they sort of have a deadline but haven't done enough thinking to set a date. So ASK WHEN THEY NEED IT BY. Have the conversation and decide on a date. Then put it on your calendar. Otherwise it will get lost.
Someday items are optional, if I don't ever get around to them it doesn't matter too much, if I only ever do what's on my list I will have met my job's requirements. Someday items are extras that would be great to do if I ever get time. Anything that has to be done to meet my job requirements should be on my lists.
graphicdetails
04-30-2011, 05:21 PM
Can you give me an example of a simple action that you would put on Someday/Maybe? I've not ever really had any of those that are not part of some project.
Well, exactly as was posted, subscribe to a magazine. Most of those "steps" you list would not be steps I would list separately. They are all done at one time IMO. When I decided I wanted to subscribe, I would simply google the mag name and the website would come up. Then I would order it. I would not need to have special steps to "decide on paper or electronic" or "enter in subscription details and order it". That's all part of the same action. There would never be a time that I would have my NA be "enter in subscription details". That's not really a convenient place to stop so I would not have it as an individual action.
Another one may be to buy a certain cd. And yet another may be to call a certain friend just to catch up.
I have noticed in my own system that I have Someday-Maybe projects and Someday actions. That is, I have no Maybe single-actions. Perhaps that's because the maybe element has some root cause in making a decision or doing some preparation.
If I were Doctor Who, I would just do it all at the same time but, given the limits of Time And Relative Dimensions In Space, I need a way to push them out into the future.
So outcomes that require decision-making or preparation are projects that I put into Someday-Maybe. Single actions I have queued up in a project called Miscellaneous. It's a linear project that presents me with background actions one at a time. This handles the workload issue since these actions don't swamp my view of project next actions.
Oogiem
05-01-2011, 05:11 AM
Well, exactly as was posted, subscribe to a magazine. Most of those "steps" you list would not be steps I would list separately. They are all done at one time IMO.
I might do them all in one time but the process is a project so I'd have it a project with the single initial action listed. When I decided to make it active and chose to work on that project I might roll on through all the various actions in sequence but if I needed to stop for any reason I'd bookmark my place with the next accurate action. So it is a project in the strict sense of the word as any action that takes multiple steps to complete.
One of the key factors for me for making GTD really work is the realization that nearly everything is a project. Some are trivial, some are major but in the final analysis nearly everything I want to accomplish requires multiple steps to get there, and that is the GTD definition of a project.
graphicdetails
05-02-2011, 07:09 PM
Yes, the strict GTD definition is that anything with more than one step is a project. The difference, however, is in how each person breaks down their items.
In our scenario of ordering a magazine, I do not need to break down steps that would literally take me a minute to complete. That is, I can decide in about 20 seconds if I want paper/electronic. I don't have to think about it. In actuality, I can do all of those steps you listed in under 5 minutes. It is counter-productive for me to break down things into such tiny steps.
I had a similar discussion a few years ago regarding this same topic. I had "add chlorine to pool" as a single action. It literally takes me about 1 minute to add chlorine to my pool because the chlorine jug and measuring cup are sitting by the pool. But another poster who breaks items down into tiny chunks told me it would be a project because he would have
1. Get out measuring cup
2. Get out chlorine
3. Measure out chlorine
4. Add chlorine to pool
I would go insane breaking tasks into such tiny increments. Some people have the need so they can keep themselves motivated.
Geekgirl
05-02-2011, 08:13 PM
I have lots of action items which I determined to do As-Soon-As-I-find-the-right-time-and-context.
Thus, the lists gets longer and longer...
How do you distinct if an item goes to the someday or the actionlist?
Do you have an limited amount of action items per list - everything else to "someday"?
Do you have always your workload (timewise) in mind, so that you can decide by "feeling": oops, this has to wait - put it to "someday"?
I started out putting everything in a Projects list and found that, like you, the action lists were too long and I became "frozen", unable to decide between so many options, and overwhelmed by the number of things I had to do. As DA says, You can only do what you can do.
Now, if it's something that I have to start work on/continue within the next week, or something I need to keep an eye on (project still active, but Waiting For something), it stays in Active Projects, otherwise it goes to SDMB. In weekly reviews, if I sense that there is going to be too much on my plate, the whole project gets shifted to SDMB and in the following weekly review, decide whether to shift back to Active. So my SDMB list has some projects with predefined next actions (to save recreating them when the project becomes active again), and some single ideas (for new projects, where I don't create NAs until I decide to make the project active, save for noting the closing date of a museum exhibit, or due date of the project etc). My system is electronic so it's very easy to hide less important things in a busy week and bring them back up the following week.
Myriam
05-03-2011, 02:14 AM
It is counter-productive for me to break down things into such tiny steps.
I had a similar discussion a few years ago regarding this same topic. I had "add chlorine to pool" as a single action. It literally takes me about 1 minute to add chlorine to my pool because the chlorine jug and measuring cup are sitting by the pool. But another poster who breaks items down into tiny chunks told me it would be a project because he would have
1. Get out measuring cup
2. Get out chlorine
3. Measure out chlorine
4. Add chlorine to pool
I would go insane breaking tasks into such tiny increments. Some people have the need so they can keep themselves motivated.
I generally agree with you... but I did notice that breaking down items in tiny chunks can help when you are not motivated at all. If I hate the chore of putting chlorine in the pool I will find myself procrastinating on it. By putting "get out measuring cup" on my na-list, I will find myself thinking "oh, I can do that, that's easy", and then, a you say, one minute later the pool is done. So I won't make a project of it with a definition of multiple NA's, I won't stop after taking out the cup and write another NA saying "get out chlorine". But writing a tiny next physical action can be a motivator to start on the thing I hate to do. If I wouldn't hate that chore, I would, just like you write down "add chlorine to pool" on my NA-list.
greetings,
Myriam
Oogiem
05-03-2011, 06:46 AM
I generally agree with you... but I did notice that breaking down items in tiny chunks can help when you are not motivated at all.
Exactly. For me even simple things are best handled as projects in Omnifocus with a single simple action listed as the next action in the appropriate context. I can then choose to finish the project or not and bookmark where to start again but I find the project framework much better than a single action in isolation.
Put this, take that, call him, talk to her. I start to loose priority here. What is more important to put or to take? And that is only with four next actions. What would happen when there are 20?
Gardener
05-03-2011, 03:58 PM
I would go insane breaking tasks into such tiny increments. Some people have the need so they can keep themselves motivated.
To me, a single action is something that I fully understand, that I'm equipped to do and that I can do in one work session without a break. I think that it's the "fully understand" and "equipped" that may differ drastically between people.
For example, you presumably know where the measuring cup for the chlorine is, and how much to use, and how to measure it, and whether spills will destroy clothes or surfaces, and how to add it to the pool. So for you "add chlorine to pool" is one action.
However, I've never added chlorine to a pool, so for me it might be a project that involves finding out how much chlorine to use, and what kind of measuring cup to use, and finding such a measuring cup, and finding something to put under the cup to catch the spills, and finding out how to add the chlorine (Do I dump it in all at once? Do I dribble it in by the pool filter so that it gets pumped through the filter?), and finding out how to clean the cup afterward so that I don't poison myself the next time I make pancakes, and cleaning it, and so on.
And, yes, for tasks where I need some morale help, I am likely to divide the task into tiny bits, even if I fully understand it and I'm fully equipped. For example, if I just need to call a coworker, "Call Joe" will do fine. If I need to call someone scary, I might turn the call into a project that starts with "Look up number".
Gardener
graphicdetails
05-03-2011, 06:49 PM
I generally agree with you... but I did notice that breaking down items in tiny chunks can help when you are not motivated at all.
Exactly my point. I could list 10 single NAs for myself and others may break those actions into 7 "mini-steps" so they stay motivated. If that's what they need to do, so be it. I personally don't have that problem as I seem to get things done by keeping only a limited amount of "active" items per week and/or area of focus. I concentrate on a small amount of actions and projects at a time and utilize S/M as a parking place until I can concentrate on them.
marimarlouisa
05-21-2011, 06:09 AM
Like it! Going to post this one on my facebook.. :)
cwoodgold
05-22-2011, 06:47 AM
Jens asked: "What does ASAP within GTD mean?"
I think it just means that you can do it right now if you decide to,
though you can have many actions you're able to do ASAP and
you can only decide to do one at a time.
"How do you distinct if an item goes to the someday or the actionlist?"
I think according to GTD, the action list is for things you're definitely
intending to do, while the someday/maybe list is for things you might or might
not do, or are intending to do but not in the near future.
One criterion I use is: do I want to keep seeing this item on my
list every day (or every week)? When I get tired of seeing an item
or consider it a waste of time to read it over and over again because
I'm not likely to do it soon, then I move it to a less prominent list.
Some of my someday/maybe lists I only intend to read once a month
or even less often. I can also just delete items from my lists.
"Do you have an limited amount of action items per list - everything else to "someday"?"
Sort-of. I don't have a specific limit, but I try to keep the lists short
enough, and composed mainly of things I'm likely to do soon, that
I'll be motivated to look at them. I have my lists on paper, and will
sometimes change the heading at the top of the page and move selected
items to a new page as a way of demoting most of the ones that
aren't done yet.
"Do you have always your workload (timewise) in mind, so that you can decide by "feeling": oops, this has to wait - put it to "someday"?"
Sounds like a good idea. The stage I'm at, I'm just trying to develop a vague realistic feeling
that I have a lot of things to do already and therefore probably should
be very careful about taking on any more.
-------------------------------------------
Some members were discussing whether to put actions on Someday/Maybe lists.
I don't see any reason not to put individual actions there; although there is
a good reason not to list a whole vague project on an action list: you wouldn't
know where to start and wouldn't do it.
Like some other members of the forum,
I usually don't list projects but just list actions on my context lists, and when
I finish an action, if there's a logical follow-up action I'll immediately list it
on my context lists. If I want to move something to someday/maybe I usually
just copy the same words, describing the next action. I'm thinking I might
need to do more with projects. I can put reminders in my tickle file which can
be just names of projects, in case I forget to write down a next action for them.
I'm thinking of maintaining a list of major projects as a way of getting a feel
for how much my workload is. And for some projects I write out plans and stuff.
David Allen says a next action should be a single, physical action, and he
gives as an example making a phone call (though he advises writing the
phone number next to the item on the action list ahead of time, so you're
more likely to do it). I've realized that he doesn't literally mean a single
physical action. If so, the first action wouldn't be making a phone call;
it would be picking up the phone or pressing the button to dial the first
number in the phone number. I think the key criterion isn't really that it's
a single physical action, but that it's a doable action that feels conceptually
like a single action to the person doing it.
If you can look at an action
on your list and think "I know how to do that!" and not feel any hesitation
about starting if you have the time, and are able and likely to complete
it in a single session, then I think it can count as a single action.
It's whether you feel that it's doable for you. I like to refer to actions
as "doables" and am grateful to David Allen for his system which
has helped me greatly increase the doability of the stuff I'm intending to do.
I agree with others about dividing things into smaller steps when
your motivation is low. I've sometimes planned to get out my papers
for my income tax one weekend, briefly look at them and put them
away, and actually fill out the forms the following weekend.
I find it makes it much easier to start.
To me, a single action is something that I fully understand, that I'm equipped to do and that I can do in one work session without a break. I think that it's the "fully understand" and "equipped" that may differ drastically between people.
---
And, yes, for tasks where I need some morale help, I am likely to divide the task into tiny bits, even if I fully understand it and I'm fully equipped. For example, if I just need to call a coworker, "Call Joe" will do fine. If I need to call someone scary, I might turn the call into a project that starts with "Look up number".
Gardener
I was interested by the aspects of next action that you mentioned there.
The quality of my clarification step determines the quality of my workflow as a whole and one of the results of that is a high quality next action. So I like your first definition of a next action above.
Sometimes we break a next action into pieces to beat procrastination and this can result in next actions that are not fully formed and leave the project in a funny state, eg: chlorine cup is lying around but the real action is incomplete and your other head knows it.
I am drifting in favour of fully formed next actions. Beating procrastination is about identifying the mental barrier and learning to go through it, which may be a feeling of boredom, or resistance to authority or anxiety or whatever. So if someone gets nervous before making phone calls, they may start the action by writing down the number and taking a break to calm down but, ultimately, they need to learn that they have the confidence in them to ride the wave of anxiety and make the call. This is between them and the phone and has nothing to do with the status of the project. So they may need to start the same next action five times before building the confidence to complete it. In a way, breaking a resistive next action into manageable pieces may instead avoid the lesson and perpetuate procrastination.
cwoodgold
05-23-2011, 03:38 PM
pxt said, "In a way, breaking a resistive next action into manageable pieces may instead avoid the lesson and perpetuate procrastination."
That's an interesting point. I don't think it tends to work that way for me,
but I'll think about it.
A big part of what I really like about GTD is the way David Allen deliberately
designed things to make actions more doable.
When I was first starting GTD I composed the following and wrote it
on my whiteboard:
1. I'll do it.
2. I'll make it easy and fun.
3. I'll do it whether or not it's easy and fun.
The point here is that when deciding what to do now or actually doing
the thing, I try to push myself and do actions even if I'm tired or the
actions seem difficult; but when processing and setting up the lists of
actions, I try to frame the actions so as to be easy to start. (Once I
start, I tend to continue.)
In other words, I try to set the actions up ahead of time to be, as
far as possible, easy and satisfying; but when doing them, I don't
rely on an expectation that they will be easy and satisfying.
A way of turning my argument around could be to say that solving procrastination issues is a GTD optimisation.
Next actions can either be designed to be self-contained steps that progress a project to its next most meaningful state, or they can be designed to overcome resistance to getting started, and there are compromises when making this choice.
Perhaps just being aware that a compromise is being made has some value.
---
When I was first starting GTD I composed the following and wrote it
on my whiteboard:
1. I'll do it.
2. I'll make it easy and fun.
3. I'll do it whether or not it's easy and fun.
---
I like this. :)
Gardener
05-24-2011, 10:01 AM
I am drifting in favour of fully formed next actions. Beating procrastination is about identifying the mental barrier and learning to go through it,
In principle, I agree with you. In practice, I see my mother (for example) never, ever doing scarey things because she has no system for getting them done, and I see myself generally getting them done because I do. So while I'd agree that it would be worthwhile to make a policy of weaning myself off the system for repeated tasks, I wouldn't want to go cold turkey, because then they might never get done.
By "system", I mean that I look at the scarey action and slice off every bit of it that _isn't_ scarey, and get that done ahead of time in a not-scared frame of mind, making the "scared" period much shorter. It's sort of like doing all sorts of prep work for ripping off the Band-Aid, so that I can rip it off fast instead of slow.
For example, I hated starting papers in high school - I don't know why, because I wrote great papers, though perhaps that's why? Excessive expectations? Anyway, I split that action into "prepare to start" and "start". "Prepare to start" involved getting my notebook (this was in the caveman days, pre-student-computers) and books and pencils and pencil sharpener and every little thing that I could imagine needing, and getting them all arranged on the tabletop. _That_ task, I didn't mind - in fact, it was almost enjoyable, getting nice clean pencils, sharpening them, squaring up the supplies, and so on.
Then I would wait for my brain to be willing to "start", and I might do a bunch of other things meanwhile. "Start" was the part that I didn't want to do, and I would find any excuse whatsoever to delay it. But by putting all my supplies together and having a work space ready to just sit down and work, I had eliminated most of the excuses. So the instant that my brain groaned and agreed, "OK, fine, fine, let's start and see if we fall over dead" I was ready to actually start. If I had needed to so much as sharpen a pencil, I probably would have delayed.
Now, I agree that it would be better to train myself to just write the bleeping paper, without needing to wait for my brain to be in the mood. But this method got the papers written, when the stricter method probably wouldn't have.
And the same is true now for scarey phone calls. If I have to find the phone number, or scan my calendar for an appointment time if it's that kind of call, then I'll use that to delay. If I do all that prep ahead of time, telling myself, "You're just checking the calendar; you don't have to call now", then the call is much more likely to get done.
I suppose, come to think of it, that the system is all about lying in wait for a courageous moment, so that I can take full advantage of it when it comes.
Gardener