I don't need a project list

[Kino]

I'm very organized. I write everything down and organize. When I finish one next action I put the next one into the system using one of my inboxes. My projects are mostly in sales field so there's no evident plan of future actions available. It means I always have (and can) to think through a next action when the previous is done. When thinking about a next action I don't need a project list. That makes me think that I do not need a project list, it is an excess if you will. And I live Ok without it for almost a year. Any thoughts?

[TesTeq]

My projects are mostly in sales field so there's no evident plan of future actions available.

What about projects that are not in this Area of Focus. Is everything self-evident?

[supergtdman]

I can't imagine doing GTD without project list personally and I also don't see much effort in keeping one. However if you feel that you really don't need it then who knows - maybe you really don't need it. Have you tried using it at all? I would suggest to try it at least

[Kino]

Sure I tried. That what I used. I posted here to say it worked! And it works fine for me now. It works for any Area of Focus not only business and sales projects in particular. I don't have that huge projects like a i.e. house construction. For that case I would have only construction company control actions.

[bradenchase]

I'd like to second TesTeq. With things I am used to and familiar with, I don't need projects or often even NAs because other factors will trigger the actions. Routines are easy and when you're good at them, they probably don't need to be tracked.

The real value in the whole system is in the new things. The new habit you want to take up. You lost your job in sales and the only opportunity you have now is in Nepalese cuisine, or the linguistics of Sanskrit, or Chiropractics, or inventing a lawn-mower that runs on water, etc or some other thing you have little knowledge/experience with.

Example, I currently have a responsibility to post updates to twitter for my company. I had avoided using twitter until it was required by my job. So, when it was first given to me, I didn't even know how to post, what "re-tweeting" was, how to follow, or any of the other aspects of twitter. For about a month, twitter was an area of focus for me with probably about 20 projects attached to it. My job required that I be perfect in my use of twitter but didn't really teach me how to use twitter (who's had that experience before, raise your hand). Then, as I got better and the learning curve broke, I was able to close down that area of focus and move it to just some projects in PR area of focus. Now I maintain the entire system with about five repeating NAs.

Now, moving out of work. How about the same thing with your relationships? Do you always know the "next action" with your wife (significant other) after a fight? How about your kids, your parents, you next door neighbor, etc. Or your finances? Are you a millionaire? Do you want to be? What do you want to do in order to get there? Personal hobbies? Didn't you used to love working on bicycles when you were younger? Health & Vitality? Do you really want to lose that tummy? Fun & Entertainment? Maybe expand to taiko drums or ancient chinese dance? Or ballet? Or deep-sea diving?

As David always says, as much as you need but as little as you can get by with. I don't need a project for every single thing that goes on in my life. But I do need projects for things that are new to me, that I can't predict, or am not sure what the next action would be for what ever reason.

Hope that helps!

[pxt]

I too always create the next action at the completion of the current action and, yes, I often find that a project rolls along happily without me ever doing anything with the project on my project list. I almost certainly have some actions in my contexts which are streams of actions each following on from the other. My use of email as my list manager makes this all the more natural as I forward the email back to myself with the next next action in the title and the history and support material in the body.

One time when my project list comes in handy is for maintaining balance across my areas of focus or goals. Sometimes I have lots of projects running to do with say finance and none to do with skills development. So my project list allows me to see that and I shut some down and open others.

Another case is that I may want to keep a lot of support materials and ideas for a project, while not having them confuse the current next action for which they might not be directly relevant. So when choosing a holiday, I may have support materials for Turkey and India, while my next action is about ballooning.

[Popeye]

With projects I do thinking...

I think about what to do with this project, creating a creative thinking about this project. Making me sure that I don´t lose any balls of the project..

I couldn´t do it without a projects list. but that´s me... ;)

[Kino]

Now, moving out of work. How about the same thing with your relationships? Do you always know the "next action" with your wife (significant other) after a fight? How about your kids, your parents, you next door neighbor, etc. Or your finances? Are you a millionaire? Do you want to be? What do you want to do in order to get there? Personal hobbies? Didn't you used to love working on bicycles when you were younger? Health & Vitality? Do you really want to lose that tummy? Fun & Entertainment? Maybe expand to taiko drums or ancient chinese dance? Or ballet? Or deep-sea diving?

As Socrates said "in the dispute the truth is born" :) So I would like to dispute a little bit. We agreed that my work as a routine don't require projects to be set. Now moving out of work. What project should I track in regards to my wife? Or kids? Or anybody else? I can always set a next action and when done put a new one into the system (usually through intermediate step - my inbox). Ballet? That's easy and usually can go to the calendar so there's no need in a project. Can you give any real example where you would need a project so I can show you how to make it without the one?

[Kino]

Another case is that I may want to keep a lot of support materials and ideas for a project, while not having them confuse the current next action for which they might not be directly relevant. So when choosing a holiday, I may have support materials for Turkey and India, while my next action is about ballooning.

I would say you talk about project support and not project LIST here...

[Kino]

With projects I do thinking...

I think about what to do with this project, creating a creative thinking about this project. Making me sure that I don´t lose any balls of the project..

I couldn´t do it without a projects list. but that´s me... ;)

If you finish a next action of the project you need to think what to do next anyway. Why do you need an artificial list of project in front of you when you have to decide only this particular project action now?

[kelstarrising]

Kino,

The Projects list also serves as a focus list for seeing the successful outcome.

But hey, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. It doesn't sound like you want to be convinced otherwise so stick with what works for you.

Kelly

[ellobogrande]

If you finish a next action of the project you need to think what to do next anyway. Why do you need an artificial list of project in front of you when you have to decide only this particular project action now?

Next actions are like bookmarks; they remind you where you've left off in the pursuit of a particular outcome. You need reminders of the outcomes that you've committed to achieving and therefore you need a projects list. It's one of the most critical lists in GTD.

When I'm in the war zone and getting pulled in multiple directions I don't have time to stop and think of the next action(s). Many times my next actions are defined during a weekly review. Without a projects list I would have no reminders of my outcomes and I'd get that nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something (i.e. my brain would take back the job that the system should be doing).

Everyone has projects by D.A.'s definition and therefore everyone needs a projects list. If it's not written down then it's in your head and that violates the first "mind like water" principle: Keep everything out of your head.

[Suelin23]

If you haven't got a project list then I'm guessing you haven't written down your horizons of focus either. It's not that you don't have a projects list, it's just in your head and not written down.
Examples of Personal projects - family vacation, buying a car, son's grade 4 education etc. You probably do have projects, you are just keeping track via the next actions and not a standalone list.
I can't do that because my memory is like a sieve. If you like to work that way then fine.

[pxt]

I would say you talk about project support and not project LIST here...

Yes, good point. In my case the two are the same because my project list is a set of folders underneath a folder called Projects. I create one when a project has enough weight that it requires a description of its outcome or support materials or, alternatively, requires a due date.

Otherwise, I'd go along with the idea that I get minimal value out of having the project list for what I call 'rolling projects'. I have a number of these specially for externally driven tasks such as a letter from the government to submit my corporation tax. I currently have an action called [CORP TAX] Scan letter and email to accountant.

[tominperu]

I don't have a project list either and get by perfectly well without one. I think asking about this on the DA forum is probably the wrong place to ask as the project list is one of the aspects that makes the "GTD" system different to a lot of other similar systems. I have often worried about not having one, have had one and ran with it on many occasions but have always ended up stopping using one due to the low benefit effort ratio. Make sure you have tried it but if it doesn't work for you, don't worry, you are still in good company!

[Jamie Elis]

One great benefit is just in the making--It has helped me gain focus and pare down what is active and what is sdmb to make a project list. When processing stuff, be it paper, objects or ideas (usually on paper), if I can force them through the mill of what and why then "when" and other features emerges as the next dimension.

But the other benefits are are in the reviewing and there hurdles here:

1) to review the project list at reasonable points, and to do so without getting depressed about what has lingered, expired, or otherwise become a lost opportunity.. That is perhaps best solved by regular reviews and including a little statement of why something is deferred and reminders of when to review again on the calendar.

2) to make the list searchable and easily readable so that a project is not defined more than one time and related projects come together, and to make bits of related information easily retrievable.

Using a paper system I am really be-fuddled by this later one--
For example, upon unpacking a box about 18 months ago I found my dearly loved antique curtain rings and put on my list "SDMB: Make curtains that display antique rings--next action determine which window is most suitable and/or research to see if more rings are available". Now,just recentyr, I found some fabric in a relative's closet and onto my list went "SDMB: make curtains using Auntie's old satin fabric and use old plain cotton sheet for lining". All the meanwhile, an active project on my list for almost a year has been "make, buy or re-purpose something for shades or curtains for the closet- room (it's really a closet with five windows). I have been through all kinds of next actions for this project such as "determine if old shades in basement will fit", "see what is in the old curtain box--measure and put on reference list", "bring dimensions of windows to home store for prices if going there anyway", "visit or call JC Penney's to see can I exchange old curtains still in unopened package for something that will work in closet-room?" , "can I buy a roll of black paper and use it on the one sunny side?". Somehow, my brain never connected the three projects until I was trying to determine the purpose of my keeping the old satin.

Had I been using my dear old Palm with its robust search function, just putting in "curtains" would have pulled up all three projects, and pulled up from my @ lists the dimensions of the materials at hand, the number of rings I had, and the dimensions of the windows.

So the question is what are the ways to make a Project List work for you?

[Oogiem]

1) to review the project list at reasonable points, and to do so without getting depressed about what has lingered, expired, or otherwise become a lost opportunity.. That is perhaps best solved by regular reviews and including a little statement of why something is deferred and reminders of when to review again on the calendar.

2) to make the list searchable and easily readable so that a project is not defined more than one time and related projects come together, and to make bits of related information easily retrievable.

Using a paper system I am really be-fuddled by this later one--....

Had I been using my dear old Palm with its robust search function, just putting in "curtains" would have pulled up all three projects, and pulled up from my @ lists the dimensions of the materials at hand, the number of rings I had, and the dimensions of the windows.

Your example is exactly why the only times I've tried paper I can barely last long enough to get my electronic system up and running again. I can't imagine doing GTD without the ability to do robust searching of projects. I'm in awe of anyone who can make a paper system work with that type of projects.

[Nicholas Hughes]

We can do a list to manage our things; But if in a team and as a team leader, how should we manage everybody's working?

[Cpu_Modern]

If as a team manager you manage how everybody is working you are doing it wrong. That is called micro-managing and the bosses who do that usually are among the worst of their kind. Make sure what you need from your team and order it. Ask them if they need any ressources or other help from you and then trust that they are able anough to do their work. Learn to be clear in communicating your expectations. The project planning chapter in the GTD book has some good points about this i. e. standards for projects etc then let it go. Be clear about the big picture, paint the big picture, that's your job as a boss.

[Roseanne]

Hi all,
This is an interesting topic. I have the same query as the initial poster. What project should I add 'Call x about signing up as a customer'? Its a recurring thing in my business and not a project with an end date.

I think setting up a separate project for each customer I want to sign up is overkill. Also once they are a prospect I add them to our CRM and use the 'current opportunities' tab in that to prompt me about emails I need to send them or about follow up calls. So they are only on my next action list until I've made initial contact and established that they are a prospect.

What do you think the best is to do this?

[BjornLjunggren]

Roseanne: It sound like you are responsible to sign up new customers as a part of you're job. That sound like a bigger area of focus than a project that you can check of as done. So I would put an area of focus on 20000 ft: Job - Get new customers, then I would have no project on 10000 ft. But I would have the action (off course!) :D

You don't have to have projects to all your area of focus, you can have actions to your area of focus with no projects attached to them.

Life is good :D

[Cpu_Modern]

Roseanne, I wouldn't duplicate the functionality of a CRM with my GTD system, that's way to much overhead for virtually no return.

We had this discussion on the forum a couple of times, you can use the search function and find the old debates.

[Roseanne]

Bjorn;
Signing up new customers is a major part of my business all right. I use Thinking Rock and it asks you to add each next action to a project. It doesn't include the concepts of the different levels of focus tho. So I guess I either have a project called 'Sign up new customers' that can never be finished or just not add those actions to any project.

Cpu_Modern;
I did do a search for GTD and CRM but didn't really find a discussion on using the two together - just discussions on the merits of different ones. At the moment if I meet someone and they express an interest in a product/service I sell I add them to my next actions list to call them and talk to them more about it or email them information. Then if it goes further they are officially a 'prospect' and I add them to the crm. Saves me adding people to the crm that say no in the very early stage. I'm quite happy with this system - I look at all the current opportunities in the crm regularly to see who I need to call and have my next actions lists for 'possible prospects' and all of my other actions to do with everything else.

Having the CRM is great tho - before I had information about customers/prospects in so many places - various different excel sheets, index cards, emails. Now its all in one place and I can see details of any emails, calls or meetings with them so I know exactly where things stand with them.

[Gardener]

Hi all,
This is an interesting topic. I have the same query as the initial poster. What project should I add 'Call x about signing up as a customer'? Its a recurring thing in my business and not a project with an end date.

I think setting up a separate project for each customer I want to sign up is overkill. Also once they are a prospect I add them to our CRM and use the 'current opportunities' tab in that to prompt me about emails I need to send them or about follow up calls. So they are only on my next action list until I've made initial contact and established that they are a prospect.

What do you think the best is to do this?

I would probably have an ongoing project, with no end date, called something like "Keep up with customer recruitment."

It might have repeating actions like:

- Review and update customer recruitment call list. (Repeating, weekly.)
- Make four calls from customer recruitment call list. (Repeating, daily.)
- Spend one hour completing tasks in CRM system. (Repeating, daily.)
- Spend one hour cleaning stale prospects out of CRM. (Repeating, every two weeks.)

I don't actually know if the tasks or repeat intervals are the right ones, but you see what I mean?

Gardener

[kkuja]

Interesting topic indeed.

For me, the project list is a reminder list about which projects I need to give few thoughts in a weekly review. When I have all projects in one list, it unconsciously releases much stress because I'm allowing myself to forget all my other projects while I'm concentrating on any action or project. For me the project list the safety belt which guarantees nothing escapes through a hole in my mind. And I know every project gets its needed attention within a week.

For me project list is a must have.

[Suelin23]

I use my project list as the basis for setting up my filing system for my project support, so if I don't have a project list I get my files all messy and can't find stuff.