Why all GTD Software is broken (for me at least!)

[Jeff Templon]

I have spent the last few weeks doing the latest round of my quest for the "right" GTD system. Once again I come up empty-handed and arrive back at "good old" Toodledo. I guess before I even start, I should say why I end back at Toodledo: it is rock solid, the web app is accessible everywhere, and there is an excellent Android app (Ultimate ToDo List) which is also rock solid and works just fine in offline mode. I can put up with a lot of irritation in a GTD system, but I cannot put up with a system that cannot work well in an airplane nor can I trust a system that every so often just loses a task.

So why am I not happy with Toodledo? It is too complex. There is a large set of things you can set for a task: start date, due date, status, goal, priority, context, tags, folders ... and these things are all pretty much independent of each other. If I decide to move a project from one context to the next, it's not a given that I could just tell the project "now you are at work, no longer at home". A project has individual tasks and each of them has its own independent context. If you implement projects using the parent task / subtask system it's even worse. You can have subtasks of a parent that reside in completely different folders. Which in most cases is sheer nonsense, and results in tons of clicking to update the various fields of all subtasks to be the same as the parent task. Except of course the status field, because usually only one of the subtasks is the "Next Action".

Also : Toodledo has no concept of a defined order of tasks: order is the result of sorting. To get your tasks into some reasonable order, you wind up fudging, like adding a "start date" to the task and sorting on that. This date of course has to be frequently updated, because you probably don't finish things when you think you would, and then that low priority tasks you thought you might get to a month ago is riding at the top of your todo list for no good reason.

So I went looking. What was I looking for?


A "cloud" based system. I regularly use four different computers (work desktop, home desktop, laptop, and android smartphone) and they should see the same view of my tasks. Either I can spend a lot of time manually synchronizing, or find a system that will work via Dropbox, or a system that is "cloud" based, which really means only that all your tasks are stored somewhere on the internet; the thing running on each of the computers knows where that "somewhere" is and keeps the view on your computer in sync with what is on the task server.
Task import of some kind. I've found out the hard way that I can't really get an idea of how a system will work for me until I have a hundred or so real tasks in the system and actually try to use it. Entering 100 real tasks takes a long time. So unless the system looks otherwise perfect, I don't even bother if there is no good import method. Acceptable import methods are e.g. direct import from Toodledo, import of a CSV file (that I can export from Toodledo) or the ability to email tasks with metadata syntax, so that the tasks can be directly sent into the proper contexts, folders, get the right due dates and tags, etc. I have a script that zips through a CSV export from Toodledo and mails the tasks off. Not as nice as direct import but it still works.
A good user interface, preferably one that lets me drag and drop stuff, one that minimizes the amount of clicks things take. And preferably one that lets me make my own ordering of tasks, independent of due dates or whatever.
A solid android app on which sync works perfectly, which can be used in offline mode (meaning as well that tasks entered in offline mode will be synced once an internet connection is available again!). It should also have an excellent user interface allowing for quick capture of todos and quick viewing of (or marking "done"!) the most important tasks.
A viewable archive or log of completed tasks, including the date completed.
Even better is if one is able to record time spent on a task, and this information is also available in the archive. And the archive can be exported to e.g. a CSV file for processing outside the system.
Documentation. It's amazing how many systems out there have no documentation whatsoever!
Ability to email tasks to the cloud interface, including setting metadata like due date and project name via a special syntax.
Ability to search the task list (including attached notes) and also filter the task list given some criteria. An optimal filter system allows boolean composition of filters, like "todo in (Folder A OR Folder B) AND (Context is Computer or Work) AND Status is NextAction".
Task export of some kind. I've found out that sometimes I think a system is going to work and it doesn't; then I want to migrate to something else. In order to do so, I need to have some sort of task export, one which is complete enough that I can import it to another system and not have to manually sort things into folders, set due dates and tags, etc.


One more thing while I am at it (and off all the systems I looked at, only Nozbe works this way): actions (todo's) added to "Projects" should have a default focus or status of NOTHING. Should not even show up anywhere except in the list of actions for that project, until that time at which you give it a context, a "next action" status, a due date, whatever. Why? Think about it. Take "wallpaper Lisa's room" as a project. I need to:

get all the stuff together I need to remove the old wallpaper
remove the old wallpaper
set a date with Lisa to go look at new wallpaper
pick out the new wallpaper
buy the new wallpaper
buy other supplies like glue, brushes, cutting tools, etc
put down plastic sheeting to protect the floor
put on the wallpaper


When I enter these tasks, they surely do NOT belong in the inbox (which is where some GTD systems will put all new tasks, regardless of where you enter them). I know where they belong : they belong in the project folder as tasks in the project. Not all of the tasks are actionable, so they certainly do not all go in "next" focus area like some other GTD systems will do. At the start of the project above, steps 1, 3, and 6 might be "next actions", the rest are all "waiting for steps 1 or 3 or 6". That is not the same as "Someday"; what someday means in GTD is "I might want to do this someday". When I am ready to remove the old wallpaper, I put "remove the old wallpaper" task into the "next action" state, and at that moment it should show up in my next actions list. Not before.

Think about Allen's book, written back in the days of paper: you wrote a next actions list, that only contained the next action for each active project, along with some projectless "next" actions. You wrote the list in an order that made sense to you, you did not rely on some external sorting engine to do the ordering for you. Projects had their own folders with project plans in them. When you identified a new action associated with a project, you did not immediately put this action in your inbox. Also, you did not go through all your project folders once a week and collect all the not-yet-actionable items on those projects onto one giant massive "Someday" list. IMO, a good GTD software system should behave the same way.

Developers of GTD systems : you are hereby challenged to come up with a "complete" system. Like my old professor Joe Redish said: 0.8 is not equal to one. However, 0.96 is equal to one.

Now, I present the systems I looked at, and what was good and what was not, and why ultimately I could not use each of them.

The systems I looked at: GQueues, KOI Tasks, SmartyTask, ActionComplete, HiTask, GetItDone, Nozbe, Thymer, and Conqu.

Note: the forum will not allow me to post the whole article, it's too long. You can view the comments about the individual systems (the whole thing actually) at here (http://www.evernote.com/shard/s152/sh/491a7210-8c26-4b21-b036-a69506bfbcf9/b653a3a7e7370ca6d2230bed790480de).

Conclusion

I'm still waiting ... and still struggling to make Toodledo work for me in the meantime! I am following Nozbe, Thymer, and HiTask closely to see what they are doing with Android. I may still give Conqu a serious test, and will probably check back on GetItDone at some point to see whether the robustness has improved. Any of the above systems could still make the cut if they make the right choices!

[twillybee2]

I, too, have been through several months of searching (though, it seems, not quite as extensively!) There's solace in "companionship" ... knowing that my lingering dissatisfaction is not an isolated experience. (It's also rather depressing.) Thanks for tossing out the throw-down challenge to any/all future providers! I second the request!

PS I'm not an exclusive mac-user, so didn't even try out Things, but (if you're familiar with it) I'm curious if you have thoughts ...



I have spent the last few weeks doing the latest round of my quest for the "right" GTD system. Once again I come up empty-handed and arrive back at "good old" Toodledo. I guess before I even start, I should say why I end back at Toodledo: it is rock solid, the web app is accessible everywhere, and there is an excellent Android app (Ultimate ToDo List) which is also rock solid and works just fine in offline mode. I can put up with a lot of irritation in a GTD system, but I cannot put up with a system that cannot work well in an airplane nor can I trust a system that every so often just loses a task.

So why am I not happy with Toodledo? It is too complex. There is a large set of things you can set for a task: start date, due date, status, goal, priority, context, tags, folders ... and these things are all pretty much independent of each other. If I decide to move a project from one context to the next, it's not a given that I could just tell the project "now you are at work, no longer at home". A project has individual tasks and each of them has its own independent context. If you implement projects using the parent task / subtask system it's even worse. You can have subtasks of a parent that reside in completely different folders. Which in most cases is sheer nonsense, and results in tons of clicking to update the various fields of all subtasks to be the same as the parent task. Except of course the status field, because usually only one of the subtasks is the "Next Action".

Also : Toodledo has no concept of a defined order of tasks: order is the result of sorting. To get your tasks into some reasonable order, you wind up fudging, like adding a "start date" to the task and sorting on that. This date of course has to be frequently updated, because you probably don't finish things when you think you would, and then that low priority tasks you thought you might get to a month ago is riding at the top of your todo list for no good reason.

So I went looking. What was I looking for?


A "cloud" based system. I regularly use four different computers (work desktop, home desktop, laptop, and android smartphone) and they should see the same view of my tasks. Either I can spend a lot of time manually synchronizing, or find a system that will work via Dropbox, or a system that is "cloud" based, which really means only that all your tasks are stored somewhere on the internet; the thing running on each of the computers knows where that "somewhere" is and keeps the view on your computer in sync with what is on the task server.
Task import of some kind. I've found out the hard way that I can't really get an idea of how a system will work for me until I have a hundred or so real tasks in the system and actually try to use it. Entering 100 real tasks takes a long time. So unless the system looks otherwise perfect, I don't even bother if there is no good import method. Acceptable import methods are e.g. direct import from Toodledo, import of a CSV file (that I can export from Toodledo) or the ability to email tasks with metadata syntax, so that the tasks can be directly sent into the proper contexts, folders, get the right due dates and tags, etc. I have a script that zips through a CSV export from Toodledo and mails the tasks off. Not as nice as direct import but it still works.
A good user interface, preferably one that lets me drag and drop stuff, one that minimizes the amount of clicks things take. And preferably one that lets me make my own ordering of tasks, independent of due dates or whatever.
A solid android app on which sync works perfectly, which can be used in offline mode (meaning as well that tasks entered in offline mode will be synced once an internet connection is available again!). It should also have an excellent user interface allowing for quick capture of todos and quick viewing of (or marking "done"!) the most important tasks.
A viewable archive or log of completed tasks, including the date completed.
Even better is if one is able to record time spent on a task, and this information is also available in the archive. And the archive can be exported to e.g. a CSV file for processing outside the system.
Documentation. It's amazing how many systems out there have no documentation whatsoever!
Ability to email tasks to the cloud interface, including setting metadata like due date and project name via a special syntax.
Ability to search the task list (including attached notes) and also filter the task list given some criteria. An optimal filter system allows boolean composition of filters, like "todo in (Folder A OR Folder B) AND (Context is Computer or Work) AND Status is NextAction".
Task export of some kind. I've found out that sometimes I think a system is going to work and it doesn't; then I want to migrate to something else. In order to do so, I need to have some sort of task export, one which is complete enough that I can import it to another system and not have to manually sort things into folders, set due dates and tags, etc.


One more thing while I am at it (and off all the systems I looked at, only Nozbe works this way): actions (todo's) added to "Projects" should have a default focus or status of NOTHING. Should not even show up anywhere except in the list of actions for that project, until that time at which you give it a context, a "next action" status, a due date, whatever. Why? Think about it. Take "wallpaper Lisa's room" as a project. I need to:

get all the stuff together I need to remove the old wallpaper
remove the old wallpaper
set a date with Lisa to go look at new wallpaper
pick out the new wallpaper
buy the new wallpaper
buy other supplies like glue, brushes, cutting tools, etc
put down plastic sheeting to protect the floor
put on the wallpaper


When I enter these tasks, they surely do NOT belong in the inbox (which is where some GTD systems will put all new tasks, regardless of where you enter them). I know where they belong : they belong in the project folder as tasks in the project. Not all of the tasks are actionable, so they certainly do not all go in "next" focus area like some other GTD systems will do. At the start of the project above, steps 1, 3, and 6 might be "next actions", the rest are all "waiting for steps 1 or 3 or 6". That is not the same as "Someday"; what someday means in GTD is "I might want to do this someday". When I am ready to remove the old wallpaper, I put "remove the old wallpaper" task into the "next action" state, and at that moment it should show up in my next actions list. Not before.

Think about Allen's book, written back in the days of paper: you wrote a next actions list, that only contained the next action for each active project, along with some projectless "next" actions. You wrote the list in an order that made sense to you, you did not rely on some external sorting engine to do the ordering for you. Projects had their own folders with project plans in them. When you identified a new action associated with a project, you did not immediately put this action in your inbox. Also, you did not go through all your project folders once a week and collect all the not-yet-actionable items on those projects onto one giant massive "Someday" list. IMO, a good GTD software system should behave the same way.

Developers of GTD systems : you are hereby challenged to come up with a "complete" system. Like my old professor Joe Redish said: 0.8 is not equal to one. However, 0.96 is equal to one.

Now, I present the systems I looked at, and what was good and what was not, and why ultimately I could not use each of them.

The systems I looked at: GQueues, KOI Tasks, SmartyTask, ActionComplete, HiTask, GetItDone, Nozbe, Thymer, and Conqu.

Note: the forum will not allow me to post the whole article, it's too long. You can view the comments about the individual systems (the whole thing actually) at here (http://www.evernote.com/shard/s152/sh/491a7210-8c26-4b21-b036-a69506bfbcf9/b653a3a7e7370ca6d2230bed790480de).

Conclusion

I'm still waiting ... and still struggling to make Toodledo work for me in the meantime! I am following Nozbe, Thymer, and HiTask closely to see what they are doing with Android. I may still give Conqu a serious test, and will probably check back on GetItDone at some point to see whether the robustness has improved. Any of the above systems could still make the cut if they make the right choices!

[Jeff Templon]

PS I'm not an exclusive mac-user, so didn't even try out Things, but (if you're familiar with it) I'm curious if you have thoughts ...

Hi,

Yes I did try out Things. I liked it OK; one nice thing about it was that I could keep all Macs in sync via dropbox. Then I got an Android phone (my first smartphone), and only later realized how useful the dang things were. Things only does iPhone, no Android. That was that!

IIRC Things suffered from the same Project disease as most of the products reviewed here. I had a "Someday" folder the size of the Mississippi.

Thanks for responding!

JT

[mcogilvie]

Wow, that's quite a rant. I think you ended up back with Toodledo because it is the best of the internet todo list managers, both in my opinion and in market success. I've looked at some of the others you name, and they are mostly not very good. Most will not grow up to be good either. Toodledo does have a lot of fields you can use, but you don't have to use them. It was difficult for me to tell from your post exactly how you are using it, but I can imagine many ways to meet most of your goals with Toodledo. As someone who has spent too much time looking for that perfect system, I can assure you it does not exist. You can get a lot done with a 50% good list; it doesn't have to be 96%. My system is not broken.

[Jeff Templon]

Hi,


Wow, that's quite a rant. I think you ended up back with Toodledo because it is the best of the internet todo list managers, both in my opinion and in market success. I've looked at some of the others you name, and they are mostly not very good. Most will not grow up to be good either. Toodledo does have a lot of fields you can use, but you don't have to use them. It was difficult for me to tell from your post exactly how you are using it, but I can imagine many ways to meet most of your goals with Toodledo. As someone who has spent too much time looking for that perfect system, I can assure you it does not exist. You can get a lot done with a 50% good list; it doesn't have to be 96%. My system is not broken.

It was not meant as a rant, it was meant as a serious comment on the state of todo lists. Most of them are at the 75% level, at least for me as clearly stated in the title of the post. What works for you may not work for me and vice versa. On one point I have to agree with you, Toodledo plus Ultimate ToDo together are a rock solid system. I never have to worry about stuff being out of sync nor losing tasks. I also pointed this out in the post, as well as that being the main reason why I stuck with Toodledo. It might be at 50% but at least I can trust it to always be consistently 50%.

I am convinced that it is possible to do better than Toodledo, much better. I pointed out in the post how a couple of the leading contenders could accomplish that. Let's see what happens!

Thanks for responding, and you said you could think of many ways to solve my problems with Toodledo. I am already working on one (which is to not use sub tasks anymore), I am interested in others, particularly in how to have Toodledo order things the way that I choose.

JT

[Yara.Kadulina]

For as long as David Allen has been around, he has been searching for the perfect tool. Programmers have worked for him, and still, there is nothing that will do the GTD perfectly. GTD itself is what makes your life better, but just better, not perfect...

[supergtdman]

Have you tried Nirvana? This is what I would use if I had no iphone, ipad and macbook with Omnifocus.

Btw This is project support, you are mixing actionable stuff with future plans, that's why only Nozbe has this, Nozbe is a nice app but it is a somewhat customized implementation of gtd (some like it, some don't), so don't expect this anywhere else -

"One more thing while I am at it (and off all the systems I looked at, only Nozbe works this way): actions (todo's) added to "Projects" should have a default focus or status of NOTHING. Should not even show up anywhere except in the list of actions for that project, until that time at which you give it a context, a "next action" status, a due date, whatever."

[enyonam]

I am in a very similar boat. It's December and I'm in the middle of my yearly review and thinking about the kinks in my system I'd like to work out for the next year. I use eProductivity on a work laptop (windows platform with Lotus Notes) but also have a BlackBerry (infact 2 - one work and one personal), an iPad, and my home computer. I really love eProductivity and my general set up but I just have too many devices, especially in this country where BlackBerry service does not appear to be reliable enough, for my on-the-go system. And I have too many inboxes. My thought is the cloud is the solution but I cannot seem to find one that checks all my boxes.

So I agree. Software vendors should think more about the cloud and how to use multiple devices ... on multiple platforms.

I think the closest is probably Evernote but I'm finding it very hard to give up my eProductivity features for a 100% Evernote solution!

[mmorowitz]

Excellent post and I totally agree. I spent years bouncing around "GTD software" and I found every single one to fall short in at least one critical category.

Ultimately, I found that the best GTD software for my purpose isn't actually considered GTD software at all: Evernote.

I now use a custom setup on Evernote using tags, folders, and saved searches. It's cloud based, syncs silently, a clean & flexible-UI, works great for easy capture, and generally satisfies all my GTD needs.

I learned that GTD implementations are too personal and that any one software developer's view of GTD is likely to fall short. The only reasonable solution for me was to use flexible software that didn't focus on GTD.

[Richard Love]

My Life Organized - like Churchill said of democracy, it's the worst form of government except for the others.

I use it, it works, and I'm lucky to have it.

[ScottL]

Put another way, all the energy you spend on looking for/at etc different systems is energy better spend actualy doing.

Scott (who after trying several systems has gone back to the simple joy of paper Time Design system).

[Jeff Templon]

My Life Organized - like Churchill said of democracy, it's the worst form of government except for the others.

I use it, it works, and I'm lucky to have it.

Hi Richard,

I should have been more specific when I said "cloud". Cloud meaning to the extent of being independent of which sort of desktop. MLO is windows-only and I am a Mac guy. I even tried the Crossover trick, but the new MLO release (3.6) had broken compatibility with Crossover, and nobody seemed to be in a hurry to fix it.

Too bad because it looked pretty good.

Thanks JT

[Yara.Kadulina]

Put another way, all the energy you spend on looking for/at etc different systems is energy better spend actualy doing.

Scott (who after trying several systems has gone back to the simple joy of paper Time Design system).

I second that entirely. You should decide for yourself if identifying the perfect GTD software is compatible with your goals. If you worked in David Co company or some other productivity/consultant/ time management group, it would be your job to do this. Right now I am guessing that your job is something else entirely. Accept a system that works the best for you, and run with it. Don't search for perfection. Better Get Things Done well, then try to get them done perfectly and waste your time.

Nevertheless, I am sympathetic with your frustration about the GTD tools. It would be great to have a perfect tool.

Yara

[Suelin23]

Yep totally agree. So many apps say they are for GTD, but when you try to use them you honestly wonder if they've read the book or just a book review.

I think you need to decide your musts and wants, it's too hard to get something that meets every spec you want. I like Pocket Informant, which is great in some aspects but doesn't even address some. Maybe later versions. However the integrated calendar and task list is great, and I usually work off the context lists sorted by priority and use icons for energy type. No time field unfortunately.

[Carber]

Any experience using Evernote on ipad/iphone with outlook as your main task and calendar manager?

[supergtdman]

Any experience using Evernote on ipad/iphone with outlook as your main task and calendar manager?
I do use evernote on ipad and omnifocus and it's awesome. I'm sure you could replace omnifocus with outlook.
Though omnifocus is made specifically for gtd and action management and works great on ipad while outlook is not a gtd app to begin with and can't be used on ipad.

Personally if I had to go with this setup then I'd rather just evernote as a single tool. But evernote and omnifocus combination is a lot better than only evernote for many reasons.
The main reason is it's more convenient because I'm using apps for their strengths instead of using workarounds and hacks to fit my system into an app which wasn't even designed with gtd action management in mind.
It's possible but pointless because cons outweight the pros. It's possible because action lists are not exactly difficult to create regardless of tool. The tricky part then though is managing it all with as little effort as possible. That's where interface and design is key. How many clicks it takes to get to where you want to get? How much time it takes to input and retrieve stuff? And so on.
Nothing is perfect though but you want to have as little resistance when you use the system basically.

[Carber]

[QUOTE=supergtdman;94354]I do use evernote on ipad and omnifocus and it's awesome. I'm sure you could replace omnifocus with outlook.
Though omnifocus is made specifically for gtd and action management and works great on ipad while outlook is not a gtd app to begin with and can't be used on ipad.

Thanks for the reply, but not sure I completely follow. You use Evernote on iPad and omnifocus? Are you syncing with a pc? What is the setup you are using (devices and software)?

[supergtdman]

I use ipad, iphone and windows desktop
I use evernote on all devices and omnifocus only on ipad and iphone. Actions and projects are not synced with desktop but all the non actionable data (project support, general reference and also media) is completely cross platform and in sync.
There is no need to sync actions and projects with the desktop because I can always check them on my iphone/ipad which is more convenient anyway. It's much more useful to have action lists on a mobile device. I don't use desktop for gtd system, I use it as a separate tool for work.

[LG User]

You should try LifeGunk. It is a life management and social networking website. There is a YouTube video on what it is, and it does address some of the issues you talk about with these GTD software, notably the "cloud" aspect. It's a website, so all your tasks, activities, ideas, etc. is available on any device that has internet access (including Android devices). I personally use it for work.

[TesTeq]

Why all GTD Software is broken?

Because of our unrealistic expectations.

You really need an easy to use list manager. Nothing more and nothing less.

But many people dream about smart software applications that would think for them. And think better than they can think about their life and priorities. Software applications that would take responsibility for the result of this thinking and the decisions made.

There's no such software and never will be.

[Popeye]

I second that....


Why all GTD Software is broken?

But many people dream about smart software applications that would think for them. And think better than they can think about their life and priorities. Software applications that would take responsibility for the result of this thinking and the decisions made.

[/b]

There will not be an magic silver bullet to use... and, by the way...
What software could think better than you what´s important in your life...
It´s you - not any software or other system - that have that feeling of what´s important for you.

[supergtdman]

I second that....



There will not be an magic silver bullet to use... and, by the way...
What software could think better than you what´s important in your life...
It´s you - not any software or other system - that have that feeling of what´s important for you.

Yeah, but this is all true except when you really have an awesome tool it's still a lot easier than when you have a tool which clogs up the whole process. It's not like the tool doesn't matter. The tool doesn't matter if you don't get gtd or don't want to think. Otherwise the tool matters a lot.

[mcogilvie]

Yeah, but this is all true except when you really have an awesome tool it's still a lot easier than when you have a tool which clogs up the whole process. It's not like the tool doesn't matter. The tool doesn't matter if you don't get gtd or don't want to think. Otherwise the tool matters a lot.

Many people spend a lot of money on products to "look better" but what they really want is to feel better about themselves. If your tool works, and you feel good about using it, then it's a good choice. There are things I don't care for in all of the popular GTD-ish list tools I know, but that doesn't make them bad tools. Most people, myself included, use "find the right tool" for procrastination rather than productivity.

[supergtdman]

Many people spend a lot of money on products to "look better" but what they really want is to feel better about themselves. If your tool works, and you feel good about using it, then it's a good choice. There are things I don't care for in all of the popular GTD-ish list tools I know, but that doesn't make them bad tools. Most people, myself included, use "find the right tool" for procrastination rather than productivity.
I'm not talking about most people because most people don't fully implement gtd either :)
I'm talking about my personal experience for the most part. The better you are at gtd the more the tool matters. Because it's a lot more noticeable when it clogs up the whole process.

It's a subtle line but it's there.
I am personally not searching for any right tools at the moment because I know exactly what I need from my system. I know exactly how an ideal app for me personally would work. I have it written down in a mind map.
I know exactly what is not perfect for me in the current tool I use. I know if it's something that really matters or not. And it's not. I also know that there is nothing better for me personally at the moment. I know what has to happen/change for me to change my system.
There is no open loop for me. I have it all written down :)
That's the difference between simply looking for a better tool because of procrastion and looking for a better tool when you know you need it.
You need the right tool but you have to know exactly what you want otherwise you can just use whatever is available and it wouldn't matter. And to figure out what you want you would still have to try some different things at first.

[ccoleman99]

I must say I don't understand why so many people are suggesting that there's something wrong with the original post's desire for a better GTD tool. He didn't say he was looking for a perfect tool that would solve every problem in life. Rather, he spelled out a perfectly reasonable set of characteristics that he wants his software tool to have. It's pretty close to what I'd like as well.

To analogize to one of my own hobbies, nobody is suggesting that having good tools is either necessary or sufficient to build a nice piece of hand-crafted furniture. If you know what you're doing, you can make almost any set of tools work; if you don't know what you're doing, no set of tools will do it for you. But that absolutely does not mean that having nice tools is irrelevant, or that searching for better tools is a waste of time.

To the original poster, if you had a Mac/iPhone set up, I would suggest Omnifocus. If you don't, you might take a look at Nirvana. It's a web-based tool that is shaping up to be a pretty nice implementation of GTD. It's fully usable now, but be warned that it is still in development. The main thing that it lacks, to my mind, is direct access through an iPhone or Android app. There is a mobile website version, so it's still usable on a phone, but only if you are online, and it's not ideal. I understand that apps are under development, so at the very least you might check in with the site from time to time to see how it progresses.

[supergtdman]

I must say I don't understand why so many people are suggesting that there's something wrong with the original post's desire for a better GTD tool. He didn't say he was looking for a perfect tool that would solve every problem in life. Rather, he spelled out a perfectly reasonable set of characteristics that he wants his software tool to have. It's pretty close to what I'd like as well.

To analogize to one of my own hobbies, nobody is suggesting that having good tools is either necessary or sufficient to build a nice piece of hand-crafted furniture. If you know what you're doing, you can make almost any set of tools work; if you don't know what you're doing, no set of tools will do it for you. But that absolutely does not mean that having nice tools is irrelevant, or that searching for better tools is a waste of time.

To the original poster, if you had a Mac/iPhone set up, I would suggest Omnifocus. If you don't, you might take a look at Nirvana. It's a web-based tool that is shaping up to be a pretty nice implementation of GTD. It's fully usable now, but be warned that it is still in development. The main thing that it lacks, to my mind, is direct access through an iPhone or Android app. There is a mobile website version, so it's still usable on a phone, but only if you are online, and it's not ideal. I understand that apps are under development, so at the very least you might check in with the site from time to time to see how it progresses.

I agree and we also suggested same tools - Omnifocus and Nirvana. Great minds think alike? :D

[TesTeq]

The better you are at gtd the more the tool matters. Because it's a lot more noticeable when it clogs up the whole process.

I'm the one who sees things differently. I think that the better you are at GTD the less the tool matters.

It's because the goal is not to do GTD better but to do the most important things in your life better. And GTD is not the most important thing in my life.

[TesTeq]

To analogize to one of my own hobbies, nobody is suggesting that having good tools is either necessary or sufficient to build a nice piece of hand-crafted furniture. If you know what you're doing, you can make almost any set of tools work; if you don't know what you're doing, no set of tools will do it for you. But that absolutely does not mean that having nice tools is irrelevant, or that searching for better tools is a waste of time.

But many people are continuously looking for a perfect hammer instead of building a nice piece of hand-crafted furniture with a good enough hammer that they already have. And they are asking a similar question:

Why all the hammers are broken?

[supergtdman]

I'm the one who sees things differently. I think that the better you are at GTD the less the tool matters.

It's because the goal is not to do GTD better but to do the most important things in your life better. And GTD is not the most important thing in my life.

Is gtd the most important thing in life?
No.
I think I heard David Allen say something similar:
Is buying dog food to feed your dog - the most important thing in life?
No. And yes.
If you don't feed your dog it might eventually eat you when you're asleep.

Is keeping your house clean the most imporatnt thing in life, is buying toilet paper the most important thing in life? Yes and no.
It is the most important thing in life when you are in the right context and at the right time.

There is no such thing as the most important thing. Everything is important at different levels and horizons.

Gtd is just one areas of focus that one would want to focus on whenever necessary.

[supergtdman]

But many people are continuously looking for a perfect hammer instead of building a nice piece of hand-crafted furniture with a good enough hammer that they already have. And they are asking a similar question:

Why all the hammers are broken?

Who cares about what "many" people do though? Most people are not doing gtd at all!

As long as you know exactly what hammer you need and you know it will save you lots of time and effort in the future then there is nothing wrong with getting it instead of using what's currently available in your house at the moment.

Simple. You need to see the long term benifits to realize this. If the benifts are worth it then get the new hammer , if the benifits are not worth then use the currently available good enough hammer.

Sure there is a catch though because if you have never used a good hammer at all then how do you know?
You still need to try some different hammers to get an idea of what's what. But that's not the point.

After a while you would get an idea of how good any hammer can possibly get so you would't have to constantly keep trying out new hammers.

One would think that It makes sense to invest some time in RNDing hammers if you plan to use them every day for the rest of your life... Instead of just starting with what was currently available ahd then also sticking with it for the rest of your life...

[mcogilvie]

I'm the one who sees things differently. I think that the better you are at GTD the less the tool matters.

It's because the goal is not to do GTD better but to do the most important things in your life better. And GTD is not the most important thing in my life.

I'm with TesTeq on this. But supergtdman believes he is absolutely clear on what gtd list tool would work best for him. I am reminded of Oscar Wilde: "There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.” I suggest we agree that some existent software is ok, and it is possible to actually use it to get something done, and we'll look at possibly better software someday, maybe.

[Popeye]

I like this strip...

Keep it simple and do the stuff. ;)

[supergtdman]

I'm with TesTeq on this. But supergtdman believes he is absolutely clear on what gtd list tool would work best for him. I am reminded of Oscar Wilde: "There are only two tragedies in life: one is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.” I suggest we agree that some existent software is ok, and it is possible to actually use it to get something done, and we'll look at possibly better software someday, maybe.

Yeah, actually it is not that hard to have an awesome gtd tool. For me no software is broken, I can do gtd with plan txt files. But without listing the content of my mind map basicslly and in short I want to be able to manage actions and projects with as little effort and resistance as possible. Plus there are some features which I think are important and others are just nice to have.

I think having a good non actionable data system which syncs with mobile and all platforms and is backed all over the place and is structured really well and etc. etc. is actually a lot harder than a system for tracking actionable items.

Hey, well at least David Allen agrees with me about the fact the tool matters a lot but only if you know what you are doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mt9tJA77KY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It's like professional sports, for example cycling.
Sure elite cyclist could ride on cheap bike anywhere but he would not use a cheap bike, he would use the most optimal one because he knows what he is doing.
But if you don't know how to ride a bike or want the bike to ride itself then it doesn't matter which bike you use

[ccoleman99]

It occurs to me that many of the features that I most appreciate/want to see implemented are not so much required for doing things, but rather to help me think about my life - ie, for planning and organizing, not for doing per se. So in one sense, yes, these features are just a distraction from actually getting things done. But for me, I consider the planning and organizing to be just as important. To pick a simple example, the ability to organize your list of projects into folders and sub folders is basically irrelevant to doing tasks, requires more time and overhead, and only encourages "fiddling" with the system. And yet, I find it very satisfying to be able to think about the big picture by pondering and "fiddling" with an organized list of projects.

[supergtdman]

It occurs to me that many of the features that I most appreciate/want to see implemented are not so much required for doing things, but rather to help me think about my life - ie, for planning and organizing, not for doing per se. .

Yeah, the devil is in the details.
One thing I personally like in Omnifocus on iPad is its contexts view in which you can see all your contexts and sub contexts at once and collapse and expand certain contexts. This way you can customize this view really quickly and conveniently to fit your current situation and see all context you can do in a single list and collapse others.
You don't have to go and check each single context separately or use some convoluted search terms to list for example contextA OR contextB AND NOT contextC.

It's just one example of a feature which is nothing really special but is very important when you use the system all the time because you want it to be as convenient as possible especially when it comes to checking your context lists.

There are many other features I really like in Omnifocus like forecast view, repeating projects or actions with as flexible due and start dates as possible, sub contexts, sub projects, review mode and such.
Now some of those features I find to be essential for me to do GTD comfortably.

There are lots of apps which do have some very cool features but on the other hand fail at those essential for me features.
One example is Nozbe, it has evernote and dropbox integration which is cool but Nozbe fails in a lot of other aspects. Sure evernote integration is cool but it isn't even implemented all that well and I can always just use Evernote separately. It's not important to have everything in one app anyway.

So my point is it's important to really know what you want from your tools, what is important to you and what is just nice to have. If a tool has cool features but lacks essential features then you can save yourself a lot of time and effort by not paying attention to it at all then regardless of how cool it looks.

Basically it's just common sense - focus on succesfull outcome in terms of what you want from your system and go from there instead of just searching for a cool tool for no real reason and just getting lost in the details. There is no perfect tool, one tool is always going to be a little better at something but it doesn't mean much.

[supergtdman]

Another thing to consider is switching your platform might be an option if you really can't find a gtd tool with all the features which are essential for you. I'm sure I wouldn't be comfortable with android or windows tablet. I've tried them.

I look at the OP original post and he lists all the features he would like to have but then also says that it has to be available for Android devices.

Well one of the reasons that I use iPad and iPhone is because they have the apps that I need. And I'm not talking about gtd apps only obviosly. I don't use a windows tablet or phone, or android tablet or phone just by chance.

So yeah, if there is nothing available on Android to satisfy your needs and if Android doesn't have anything essential for you which iOS doesn't have then instead of struggling with lacking options maybe consider switching to iOS.

By listing android as an essential feature you artificially limiting your options. And I doubt there is anything which makes Android really essential.

I mean if I'm going to list all of the features that I want from a gtd app and then also say that I want it to run on a windows then I'm simply going to be just as out of luck as the OP.

I think there is also a good reason why David Allen uses custom software built for himself which is based on Lotus notes AFAIK. He uses Blackberry and it's essential to him for security reasons so his desktop app syncs with his Blackberry.
I mean he is not using iOS or android or windows just by chance either.

[Jeff Templon]

Hi There,

Thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts. A couple of answers to various people:

1) yep, if I use the hammer every day, it makes sense to get a good one. Did the same thing with my laptop, did the same thing with my sport shoes, did the same thing when I bought snow tires for my car.

2) Unfortunately I got the android phone before it occurred to me that it might be handy to sync my GTD system (at the time "Things") with the phone. That's why I have this strange combination. My plan rolls in October, at which point I could get another phone "for cheap" as an incentive to renew my plan with my provider. We'll see what happens then.

3) Both GetItDone.app and Nozbe (http://www.nozbe.com/a-templon) are releasing Real Soon Now; GetItDone appears to be a significant overhaul of the interface as well as the sync protocol, Nozbe releases a new version of the Android app. Two chances to get it right. I'm checking their web sites every week or so for activity, in the meantime trucking along with a somewhat simplified version of my ToodleDo setup -- all that investigation was useful in helping me realize how I had overcomplicated ToodleDo by turning on too many options.

If people are interested I can keep you all posted on developments.

Oh yeah, HiTask released an alpha Android App that does almost nothing, but at least it shows they are actually working on it!

[egallagher2k]

Been through everything you state. i am now with Andriod smartphone and tablet and a Windows Laptop and I find Astrid can do everything I need it to do. Love the recurring and regenetive tasks.

[ScottL]

is less time you spend getting things done.

Listen to TesTeq

" think that the better you are at GTD the less the tool matters.

It's because the goal is not to do GTD better but to do the most important things in your life better. And GTD is not the most important thing in my life."

and mcogilvie.

Pick any software (or Time design which is still pretty good if you like paper), learn how to deal with the limitations, and get stuff done.

And do yourself a favor and get the simplest software you can live with.

[supergtdman]

@ScottL
I'd rather say listen to everyone and think for yourself :)

Gtd System is very personal for everyone.

[tomstubbs]

@ScottL
I'd rather say listen to everyone and think for yourself :)

Gtd System is very personal for everyone.


I would have to agree that the personal picadillos (sp?) each of us brings to the software choice probably silently dominates the decision. I've tried at least 5 of the Windows-based programs, and looked at Omnifocus on my son's Mac. Two things seem to influence my choice most powerfully. First, as David Allen notes in "Making It Work," most of the GTD software misses the mark because it is too complicated. I like Toodledo and tried it for a while, but it seems to be less intuitive than I want my GTD software to be. Second, I work in a team. Delegating actions is important. Toodledo has you click on the button in the corner to look at those actions delegated to someone else. I prefer to look at a project and see all actions together. If I want to see all the actions delegated to a team member, I want to have that option, as well. For review purposes, however, seeing the united view is critical for me. Whatever its flaws, Nozbe implements that feature wonderfully. I can easily invite team members to a project and (once they accept the invitation) review all of the actions associated with the project, no matter who is assigned to the task. For group reviews, that is really helpful. I can also look at the lists of actions assigned to any person when I need to just meet with them. FWIW, I also find Nozbe's interface simpler, which makes it easier to get buy in from others working with me. Unfortunately, I have a Windows-based system at work. So, Omnifocus is not an option. I do have an iPad, however, which some have described as a "gateway drug" to migrating to an Apple-based office. For now, though, Nozbe works very well, with its shortcomings posing no serious problems.

[jrdouce]

Why all GTD Software is broken?

Because of our unrealistic expectations.

You really need an easy to use list manager. Nothing more and nothing less.

You are correct about "unrealistic expectations". The tool is just a tool, GTD is our organization. I think the heart of the issue, though, is not people wanting software that thinks for them, but wanting software that doesn't force them to think like the developer. I was never more successful with GTD than back in the old days on Time Design, then on the simple Palm Pilot 3. Paper and Palm 3 didn't do anything other than hold my lists labeled by my contexts. Simple.

There are too many inboxes these days for me to rely on a paper system, and I couldn't live without cloud, of-line and mobile access. I've been through a dozen apps and programs over the last few years. I stuck with Google Tasks and Simple Note the longest, because they were the simplest, but the interfaces are weak, and I was never happy with the Android apps. Also, it required two programs to hold notes and task lists.

I'm back on Evernote again, and so far loving it. The first time around I found it too complex to be reliable. This time I realized the complexity wasn't Evernote, it was me! Evernote has amazing capabilities, but also amazing potential to implement a simple system. All the interfaces, Client, Web and Android are stable and reliable and as simple as I want them to be.

I have 3 notebooks:
Inbox (the default to which I email content or add new notes on the fly to be sorted later)
Lists (ordered lists)
Notes (for bulk items)
I'm in the process of combining the Lists and Notes, since tagging enforces order

I have about 20 various tags, but the @GTD tag has all my @context tags (@Contact, @Errands, @Someday etc.)
The rest of the tags are personal subject areas. Evernote allows multiple tags,so I might have the GTD context "@Errands" and "Build Shed" on a note "File for building permit - town hall" and "@Contact" with "Build Shed" on a note to "Call Rich for help leveling shed site." This method allows me to sort by next actions GTD context and to look at all the tasks I have for my Build Shed project.

I'm more hopeful with tis system than I have been in a while.

Good luck

[Mark Jantzen]

I attended a seminar where David showed us his actual system ... when it was on the Palm desktop!

Two reactions at the time - wow is that simple & wow is that complete.

It's not the software!

[jrdouce]

I attended a seminar where David showed us his actual system ... when it was on the Palm desktop!
Two reactions at the time - wow is that simple & wow is that complete.
It's not the software!

Exactly! I've been to the seminar twice. Once on Time Design, before it was even called GTD, and once on the Palm 3. All David had was a calendar and collection of text lists, either paper or electronic. Sure there were tickler files and folder and other hard copy support documents, but his system was just a simple collection of lists.

[North]

I find it impossible to use GTD with the wrong tools (if they are sufficiently wrong anyway, such as paper and pen...). It's not that I don't know how to do it, it's the same basic process after all, but I just can't find the motivation. And lack of motivation is as real an obstacle as a brick wall. Fiddling with paper? No thank you.

I basically need a smartphone for GTD. Maybe I would have felt differently if they didn't exist, but they do and my motivation is adapted to actual circumstances.

Steve Jobs refused to use things if he didn't like the design, including an oxygen mask he needed for his health, possibly his survival (they tricked him into using it). People are different, some are very easy going and would use anything, and others are not.

That said, of course perpetually seeking better tools COULD be a symptom that the problem lies elsewhere, like some internal obstacle to using GTD that's unrelated to the tool (but is expressed as perpetual tool-searching), but I think it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume they want what they say they do, and help them with that, rather than try to psycho-analyze them to discover what you think they REALLY need.

[PeterW]

...in the meantime trucking along with a somewhat simplified version of my ToodleDo setup -- all that investigation was useful in helping me realize how I had overcomplicated ToodleDo by turning on too many options.

@Jeff - I posted this over at Toodledo in the thread you started there but thought it worth mentioning here also:

1. NirvanaHQ are about to start beta testing of their iOS app, so it won't be long before they have something available that might challenge the incumbents;

2. I simplified my Toodledo setup a few times too, but was still struggling with issues such as how to handle projects and the cumbersome/quirky interface.

The fact that some issues will probably never be addressed because the developer only ever works on what "interests" him at the time left me looking around again. I've been using Appigo Todo on my iPhone for a few years and really like it. I tried out the latest version of their Todo Online cloud system and really liked it. Like the iPhone app, it has a nice balance of simplicity and elegance yet enough features to handle what I need.

So far so good!