Is Goal Setting Bad for You?

[Anonymous]

Despite setting goals in some of the key areas in my life – goals which are to the obvious benefit of my family – I have found that over the last few weekends I am totally stressed out in their company.

To extend the runway metaphor, I feel like a plane trying to take off when the wheels are pointing a different direction to the flight path, while half the passengers are still in the departure lounge with no idea that the plane has left.

I am mulling over two reasons for this.

Firstly – how good can we really be at identifying the essential goals that will make our own lives happier? Have we really got the insight to be able to self-analyse to the extent that we can hit on some set of keys to ultimate satisfaction, i.e. the very goals that will make our lives deeply satisfying? I’m not so sure.

I suspect that I have created a rickety wooden footbridge made out of a few goals, and am staking my life on it. Meanwhile, there is a fertile canyon concealed in the gloom nearby, which is the real me, and would take years to explore, if I ever even got to see it. Would I have the insight to be able to explore it and identify the things that really matter to me, and give me that deep, subterranean sense of rightness?

The other reason might be a more accessible problem: balance. For example, two of the main goals I am obsessing about at the moment are the acquisition of an investment property, and the redecoration of our home. Now, if we take the usual categories of human activity: spiritual, family, creativity (I can’t remember the rest of them at the moment), maybe it is perilous to crank up the volume in one or two of those areas, while leaving the remainder at the usual everyday volume. Maybe those other unconsidered areas get trampled on, and the consequent sensation is that significant areas of our lives are crushed by our excessive focus on one or two areas only. Thus we get the sensation of being pulled severely off centre?

Maybe humans need to either have something special going on in all areas of their lives at the same time, or else have everything on background cruise control in the subtle state of balance that has been fine tuning itself over all of our lives.

DFE

[Anonymous]

As a veteran of Franklin/Covey teachings, I really identify with two statements of David Allen's (I paraphrase):

"Clarifying your values is likely to make your life more complicated, not simpler. It's not bad or good, just true."

"Getting some of the stuff you have to do done is more likely to make you feel better than reciting 'I am a powerful, effective person' one hundred times."

The problem with goal setting is mostly a confusion of the different levels we live on. If my goal is to earn $400,000 this year, what does that really mean? Is the goal possible? How do I start? What do I need to do on an ongoing basis? It doesn't sound like a project, for sure. Do I need to have projects supporting the goal? Perhaps the project would be "enlarge client base with view to increasing income" or "focus on most profitable clients"- two very different approaches. If all you have are long-range goals, and no projects and no actions to drive you towards them, then your goals either drive you crazy or you learn to ignore them.

Try separating your goals into 20,000 foot levels, 30,000 foot levels, et cetera. Don't worry about linking the levels. Just sort them out, and let them drive your projects. Don't review them too often- once a month is plenty for me.

Good Luck!
Mike

[Siva]

Firstly – how good can we really be at identifying the essential goals that will make our own lives happier? Have we really got the insight to be able to self-analyse to the extent that we can hit on some set of keys to ultimate satisfaction, i.e. the very goals that will make our lives deeply satisfying? I’m not so sure.


DFE,

Wow! Your metaphor of the plane taking off is very powerful! I agree with the above quote from your mail. In terms goal setting, there is no certainity that we are setting the right goals.

In the end, one simply needs to set goals that make sense at that time, and revise the goals based on experience. I am not sure there is any other way. It is also not easy to determine what makes us truly happy. One has to plod along and find their way - the journey towards happiness is life, not happiness itself (I think). In George Bernard Shaw's words, "the secret of being miserable is to have the time to think whether you are happy or not!"

My experience is that it is essential to have the balance. I balance the three areas of my life - Self, Family and Work. I set goals for the near future and long term along these these lines and then go from there. Sometimes, balancing these may involve compromises to be made along the way in specific areas, but the sum total (balance) is a happier condition than succeeding too well in one at the cost of other. This focus on balance has made me much happier than anything else I did before - and it makes my goal setting much easier.

thanks for a thought provoking mail.

Siva

[stringdad]

Your puzzlement is related to a fundamental tension between two concepts that I have not seen well addressed: the tension between focus and balance.

I am dinking around with looking at different timeframes for focused and balanced activity, and how that differs in importance for different roles we have (or Areas of Focus). For example, in training for distance races, Dick Brown (Olympic coach) advocated focused days, balanced weeks and balanced quarters (13 weeks). For Work/Life Balance, you might decide to balance your months, during which you might put in some 80-hr weeks, or perhaps you balance every week (40-hrs), but focus intensely for periods during the week.

I have an intuition that successively longer planning timeframes generally should alternate balance and focus, but I am still playing around with this. Different roles need to be treated differently. This is more to identify the issue as needing exploration.

[Rainer Burmeister]

For fun, you can go all the way from the Stratospshere, right down to the runway, and everything in between.
...
But if we can connect our daily activities, with our highest Values, and Objectives, then that gives life MEANING.
And the meaning we give our lives are decided by us as individuals.



Coz,

basically I agree with you. But I often have been in the situation that my "meaning" clashes with someone else's "meaning" and that only a bottom-up approach could untangle the struggle. The "cosmic view" of two persons can be so completely different from each other that only a "down to earth" agreement can settle the difference.

Regards
Rainer

[Rainer Burmeister]

"Clarifying your values is likely to make your life more complicated, not simpler. It's not bad or good, just true."

Mike,

yes, it is true. Now that I'm quite clear about my values things are getting more and more complicated.




"Getting some of the stuff you have to do done is more likely to make you feel better than reciting 'I am a powerful, effective person' one hundred times."
This is true, too. Affirmations only work when they are no lies and finishing a big chunk of work gives you a great feeling.



Try separating your goals into 20,000 foot levels, 30,000 foot levels, et cetera. Don't worry about linking the levels. Just sort them out, and let them drive your projects. Don't review them too often- once a month is plenty for me.
This sounds convincing to me. Maybe I should think about connecting this with the SMART-approach to goal setting.

Thanks,
Rainer

[pd_workman]

May I suggest "Your Best Year Yet" By Jinny Ditzler? This is a fantastic book for working through what your goals are/should be - helping you establish focus, figure out what is most important to you, what will benefit you the most, a practical workbook on goal-setting that no time management book could ever match (imho).

Pam

[Anonymous]

Coz

How do you do it? I basically have two lives running in parallel: the “professional career” I somehow ended up in, which is clerical, cold, and soulless; and the life I wish I had led – one rich in artistic creativity and reward. My main work goal is to minimise stress. Nothing more. My main artistic goal is somehow, someday, to earn my crust through artistic expression. But the years are pushing on.

The mis-fit between these two “lives” has inner seismic consequences. I guess I approach every weekend hoping against hope that I can drag some solid creative satisfaction from the hours available, but of course, this single minded approach means that all the other areas – family, rest, spiritual etc get scant attention, with the inevitable painful consequences. If I persist I hurt them, if I compromise I become filled with resentment. And furthermore at the moment, as I described in my first post, I have two other mundane but important projects to attend to.

I’d kill for a fully integrated vista as you describe it! :cry:

DFE

[Anonymous]

I've personally found that I am 50% more effective, and less stressed, by "beginning with the end in mind". Like Jim Rohn says, see where you want to be <xx days/years/months from now>, and work backwards.

I can't tell you how many times I've had goals that were like
* Plan Nashville Trip
* Go to Nashville
etc,...and never got done. Never spelled out the little things, like "Order Nashville tickets", "Get rental car", etc.

What I do today is a combination of:
* GTD
* Tasks (I _heavily_ use these in Outlook/Palm)

I use a tool DAILY called Bonsai Outliner by Natara Software (Palm OS). I scrapped the paper planner (not even sure where it is right now) and am using this approach:
* I'm not going to look at my planner ALL THE TIME in the category "@Computer" whenever I sit down to my computer. It's just not going to happen, and I'm fooling myself if I think it is.
* I think heirarchically, but jump from spot to spot (in my head). So an outliner is perfect for a guy like me.
* I borrow from David's "@" categories, though. Lets me logically group my tasks in chunks, and therefore projects. That's how I think.
* Bonsai lets you group todo's many different ways. I can link dissimilar, but related tasks, into a project and they still show up in my calendar, alarms and all.
* Feels great to check stuff off the list. I also use a companion program to "journal" completion of the task. Can't tell you how many times I've referred back to things.

I tried apps like LifeBalance, and I guess it works for some folks, but not me. Waaay too much time to spend to "pat myself on the back" for being balanced. I can think of about 20 other ways to tell you whether I'm balanced or not...especially when my 10-year old boy comes in and asks for help with his homework when I'm on the phone with my business. I help him first, and go back to my call. My kids are more important than setting up my Palm.

IMHO, it's all about your personal priorities...not what the system says the priorities are.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Dave

Thanks for that refreshing serving of real life – I felt better just reading it! Your remark about your ten year old son said it all: in a few years time they won’t want to know us – there is no better thing to do now than just be with them.

I like your planning approach too: working backwards is a huge help, and GTD is the best way to get the first toe-hold.

DFE

[Scott_L_Lewis]

Despite setting goals in some of the key areas in my life – goals which are to the obvious benefit of my family – I have found that over the last few weekends I am totally stressed out in their company.

To extend the runway metaphor, I feel like a plane trying to take off when the wheels are pointing a different direction to the flight path, while half the passengers are still in the departure lounge with no idea that the plane has left.


I'm wondering if the reason you are so stressed out by clarifying your goals is that you are mentally trying to accomplish them all at once.

To adapt an old joke:

Q: How do you eat an elephant?
A: One bite at a time.

Q: How do you eat a herd of elephants?
A: One elephant at a time.

You might gain greater peace by spending some time determining the order and sequence of the projects and actions you will need to accomplish to realize your goals. Let's face it. We can only do one thing at a time. For me, focus is doing one thing at a time and staying at it until you have gotten a significant and meaningful "unit of work" accomplished. Balance, on the other hand, is obtained by the mix of things you accomplish over time. This is how you can have "focused days and balanced weeks" as StringDad's quote of Dick Brown suggests.

[Anonymous]

I know many successful people and as far as I know none of them could produce a list of handwritten goals (none of them use gtd either). But ask them to rattle of their accomplishments and they are many.

Honestly, since I started using GTD I've been astounded at what some people are able to keep in their heads. My wife for one, no goals, no lists, but a very successful magazine launch with lots of moving parts. I wonder

Its something of a mystery to me

[CosmoGTD]

Is not an Accomplishment, just an achieved goal?

Also, humans have survived just fine for hundreds of thousands of years without ANY lists at all!



I know many successful people and as far as I know none of them could produce a list of handwritten goals (none of them use gtd either). But ask them to rattle of their accomplishments and they are many.

Honestly, since I started using GTD I've been astounded at what some people are able to keep in their heads. My wife for one, no goals, no lists, but a very successful magazine launch with lots of moving parts. I wonder

Its something of a mystery to me

[Anonymous]

Thanks everybody for the great replies. I actually feel relaxed and reassured, and this tells me that I had been reading FAR too many goal setting and total life management articles. In hyping up their message, a lot of theses articles imply that the lives we currently lead are valueless.

Not so.

The replies on this thread are full of positive tones – people are making systems work for THEM, as opposed to feeling they have to integrate their entire life into a particular system. I don’t think anyone on this thread has fallen for any sales pitches.

I can see now that a large part of the frustration I expressed at the start of the thread was caused by this implanted belief that the way I currently live my life is bad/wrong/a failure. This in turn caused me to over-react to anything that obstructed my path towards “worthwhile” goals.

For example, I believed that unless I led a life of artistic expression, I was not “being true to myself”. If I did not become a millionaire by retirement age, I was a financial failure and had betrayed my family, etc. etc. Then I picked up the belief that I must achieve these goals at all costs, and this cranked up the tensions even more.

I have a dream that recurs very frequently – I am at the end of my annual two week vacation, and I suddenly realise that I have not done any of the things I wanted to do. No prizes for interpreting this one. But I think it shows that I am putty in the hands of goal-setting gurus.

Mike, I think your approach is a much more realistic one than the all-or-nothing fixation that can afflict people like me. Your approach “feels” like one that fits in with the rhythms (or lack of rhythms) of life.

You wrote: “If all you have are long-range goals, and no projects and no actions to drive you towards them, then your goals either drive you crazy or you learn to ignore them.” Placing projects and sub-projects at various altitudes lets you say to yourself “Yeah, I’m getting somewhere with this. I can’t see exactly how it will all work out, nobody can do that.”

You quote DA “Getting some of the stuff you have to do done is more likely to make you feel better than reciting 'I am a powerful, effective person' one hundred times.” That’s what goal setting should really be about – creating the sense that we can actually get some things done to make our lives better. (Again, NOT the all-or-nothing message that others espouse).

Siva, you wrote “In the end, one simply needs to set goals that make sense at that time, and revise the goals based on experience.” Again, you confirm that there is no magic solution to deciding how our lives should go, no single vision. I know, for example, that my goals have subtly changed since I was a younger man. (In fact, we will have heard a thousand times that having kids changes everything in your life. Well then, how can we possibly have a single life vision that will be equally valid when we are young free and single, when we are married with young kids, an when or kids have grown up?).

You confirm what I said (and secretly hoped) in my first post, that balance is the best aim to have. If I had embarked on a twelve reading or writing program, I know I would feel a lot happier (or less guilty) if I was also planning a great family holiday, an investment for the kids education, and a surprise gift for my wife.

Stringdad, EVERYONE seems to recommend focus as the only way to go. Trouble is, they don’t say how long we should focus for. Brian Tracy and others tell us to identify our most valuable task or goal, and focus exclusively on it until it is completed. But that just does not work in real life.

I have been thinking about a concept that combines focus and balance. When you think of it, we focus within certain contexts. The longest I will focus on work tasks is between, say, 9 a.m. and 5 30 p.m. This is the full extent of my work focus. But even within this context there are tasks that must be carried out. A lot of them will spring from worthwhile routines – sign letters, make or take certain phone calls, delegate work to staff, and so on. So, within the work context, I might block out 9 until 11 as exclusive to my main project. Then, take a coffee and make calls for 30 minutes. Then return to the project for one hour, and on. Therefore, focus is good, but if it strays outside those allocated blocks of time, it will start to have a detrimental effect on the bigger work picture.

After work, I move into a different context. The contexts then probably become something on the lines of family time, workout time, and spouse time. Within each of those contexts there could be key things to focus upon, and again focus is good providing it does not exceed its context. For example, I might have a weight or pulse-rate target at the gym, but I will not miss out time with the kids by doubling gym time.

Goal setting gurus recommend the virtues of determination, drive, courage, but they rarely advise patience. The goal setting experience can be an exciting one as we take hold of the magic lamp and name all the things we want. But in the real world, they will take longer than we expect. There is a need for a detailed mixture of focus and balance to make sure we are moving towards those.

AS Mike quoted from DA “Clarifying your values is likely to make your life more complicated, not simpler. It's not bad or good, just true.” Our lives are a soup of different roles that average themselves out in some way or other, even if we do nothing about them. Goal setting articles often cite Michael Jordan or captains of industry as examples of how goal setting can achieve great things. However, those people were generally single minded to the exclusion of almost everything else. (Michael Jordan said that he wished he had seen his sons grow up). Trying to breakdown the soup of roles down into its individual ingredients, and then applying the goal setting formula to each of these roles, is very complicated.

I suspect that single minded people do not have the capacity to regret the lack of balance in their lives – that’s their mental make-up, they feel happy, and do not feel the pull from other areas they are ignoring.

Pam, I'll give that book a try. I think I have a good idea of the things that would make me happy in life, nevertheless, I am always open to new guides and techniques.

Coz, I could probably do a reasonably comprehensive diagram of main areas in my life. I think my problem would be accepting the restrictions caused by financial necessity, and also, as I said above, exercising patience. This would therefore sabotage my efforts to work down through the levels to a 10,000 foot or runway level stage.

I love the synergy that is clearly present in your system. I read somewhere recently, it was a quote from one of the old timers, possibly Napoleon hill, something along the lines that by observing a single decision make by a person, he could describe the whole system of values that drives that person’s life. So, I guess there is a very precise set of values and drivers that influence what I do all the time. It could even be mapped out as accurately as yours could. The trouble is, it would be a very unsymmetrical diagram. It would be nice to think that I could try to do such a diagram, and then identify the areas that are being strangled to death, and try to rescue them!

Scott, you are hammering home the need for patience. GTD is supped to help me keep all my projects visible. But without the considered approach that you describe, my list of projects is becoming a blurred lump of frustration. You‘re right, there’s no other way to actually make progress on them.

DM, your post reminds me of a conversation I had once. I was rounding up a meeting with the general manager of a branch of a major public company. He had his Filofax with him a usual, and I asked him what system he utilised, in particular, how he kept track of all his stuff.

He said it was simple. He noted all requests and commands from head office. If head office did not follow them up in three days, he dumped them and never thought about them again. I thought this was a great way to keep his lists real.

DFE

[Siva]

DFE,

You have a good way of putting together information!

The problem you highlighted - that of having a worthwhile goal in life (and not be lost in so called mundane items) - is a very pervasive one, and difficult to recognize as you have done so well. It is not obvious what this worthwhile goal is. Most of the books give an impression that one's life is nothing unless we have this great worthwhile goal to go for. In my case this pursuit of 'worthwhile' goals led to problems - chiefly the fear of failure - and hence procrastination. I now think of my life/day as a series of experiments (I come from a research background) and hence I can now accept failure as a part of experiments. Works for me at this time!

I recently took a small test on the www.thinktq.com website (free). It has 100 questions on a variety of items. It helped me a lot in identifying my bigger problems and my smaller problems...so that I may focus on improving my weakest link. I recommend you take this (for educational purpose if nothing else) as you might appreciate its value.

Siva

[CosmoGTD]

What you are talking about here is called by Dr Albert Ellis MUSTURBATION.
That is, making things MUSTS. According to many of the top cognitive psychologists, making things MUSTS CREATES emotional disturbance, frustration, and actually inhibits performance.
I have said this before, Tony Robbins and his ilk teach Musturbation as a Virtue. Robbins is wrong. I have my views on why Robbins and others teach that destructive idea, but its too much to go into here. Making goals MUSTS is a very bad idea. Even top athletes do not do this, or they will choke.

[zootski]

One of the best threads for a very long time. I am now procrastinating because this thread really inspired me. Such is life. One quote:

"I suspect that single minded people do not have the capacity to regret the lack of balance in their lives – that’s their mental make-up, they feel happy, and do not feel the pull from other areas they are ignoring."

Very insightful - it's easy to get hung up on this, as it is very unusual for people to succeed at their 'passion' or whatever you want to call it. Or more accurately, it's very unusual for someone to become 'world class' at that thing. So all these books focus on unusual people like Michael Jordan, and yes, it turns out the guy was VERY VERY focused (and phenomenally talented) and some parts of his life suffered because of it, despite his very real successes.

I started a small firm during the dotcom boom - I spoke to an older, perhaps jaded venture capitalist and he warned me he couldn't count how many people he had known over the years who had spent years of the most productive healthy parts of their lives determined to be successful entrepreneurs and failing. Of course, only a few can really succeed, and it's up to the individual to decide how far to take it.

For a few years I was working as a consultant to a local power utility. I noticed that a lot of the people doing some of the most boring jobs were in fact VERY INTERESTING PEOPLE. Why? Because they have a life. The CAD manager who is in fact an artist in her spare time and uses every minute of her holiday to pursue her art. The actor who has given up (we are all over 40) on becoming 'successful' and famous, and is spending his free time acting in local productions. I saw him and it was a moving experience - many 'not vey successful' artists of all stripes have a lot to say.

Seems to me that some of the most interesting people actually gravitate to some rather mundane jobs - and save their energy for the other part of their lives.

Zootski

[Anonymous]

M2CW

i have found that all this time management stuff (gtd, covey, et al) -- believe me -- i've been a time management junkie -- is like david points out in his intro -- are about developing tools. -- I'm also a tool junkie at home. one problem with tools as my wife will attest -- you can spend a lot of time looking at them, polishing them, arranging them, buying them, trying them out on scrap pieces of work,

but they are all useless unless you use them to build something -- that is unless you have a vocation as a tool builder/collector. The guys who give us these tools are tool builders -- they use the tools themselves to build other tools -- DA's whole business is about building tools and having you buy them and use them --

most of us however have to apply those tools to build something -- for some of us it may be to build a better life, for some of us, its to build a business, for some of us .... you get the picture.


in my experience, you have to know what you want to build and how you are going to build it -- thats the planning that DA spends a chapter on -- but he admits there are other tools and tool builders out there who can give you more advice on that aspect of your life -- but he offers the advice that you need to have a "desired outcome" -- a "goal" if you need to use that term -- otherwise you can never know where you want to go and can't get around to getting stuff done. Just like a trip where you know where you want to go (nyc to san francisco) and you know where san francisco is and you can plan a detailed trip map all the way there with times to stop and see all the sights in between, the reality is,there are detours, and all you can focus on at the present time is the next leg of your journey (NA).

most of the goal stuff i've studied have been big on creating a vision of what you want, and magically this is supposed appear. i know that's probably a bit harsh but I think what david is trying to get at in his approach is -- without some thought as to how you get to that big vision in the sky (50k ft level) and handle the day to day stuff that gets in your way and make some progresss (NAs) toward that desired outcome--that goal/dream/whatever will never get accomplished.


my view is that there are gifted people out there -- just as there are gifted musicians, athletes, business executives -- who can just get stuff done without a lot of thought -- however for the rest of us -- we need some structure, some plan, some technique, some right way to do things -- probably a result of our ingrained educational/culture/ etc.


I've had to do a lot of thinking about this recently.
Some people consider me successful i'm not sure i do -- i'm back at my college for a distinguished alumni award this weekend -- i have have a problem at seeing myself old enough to be "distinguished" but i struggle even more to see what makes me successful in other peoples eyes. -- I've had some goals early in life, wrote them down like a good doobie, accomplished some of them, but what i was ultimately successful at didn't turn up in those goals at all. -- those things just happened --

But, i've discovered a clue as to how they happened. As i dissect the last twenty some odd years since leaving college

what i have found as a key is that if you have the right tools in your toolkit and more importantly know how to use them, when an opportunity comes around, you'll be prepared and most likely the most prepared to take advantage of it.

The opportunity may simply be spare time to spend with your 20mo old daughter, who wants to do nothing more than sit in your lap , it may be a job promotion, it may be a new client, it may be a new job, it may be that unforeseen fork in the road, like illness, or maybe new relationships -- but believe me -- those opportunities will occur -- if you are not prepared, or don't have the right tool on hand and have practiced using it, you won't be ready -- for me thats the essense of DA "mind like water" the relaxed martial artist mentality at handling life that DA wants us to attain. -- its about preparation and readiness for execution for anything life throws at you. -- its the readiness that is the key.


that seems to be what separates the people i've seen around me on a day to day basis who i consider successful -- some people call them lucky, i think they simply have tools and techniques and have honed those tools thru work to be ready for anything. But it doesn't happen without work at making the tools work.

I think we all obsess about the question "do we have the right tool" -- i think the answer is -- have a tool, but more importantly -- do i have the right technique.


In my younger life, i was a classical guitarist-- and wanted to go from being a good one to a really great one -- i just knew that if i had a better guitar -- that if i had the right class, it would propel me to greater heights -- that my student guitar just wasn't the right tool -- my mind was forever changed when i was in a masterclass and the worldclass artist teaching the class took my instrument and made music as beautiful as any he would on his $10k instrument -- the secret (yes talent) but more importantly- honed technique over years of practice --

may seem off topic from the concept of goal -- but i've found that for most of us -- we know what we want, we just don't have a clue how to get there -- because we spend too much time floundering with everthing around us -- david's approach is to give us tools and techniques to slay the everyday dragons that get in the way of attaining them.

in my career in business for the last 15 years, i've tried to use the same approach -- have the right tools and techniques for what might come my way. -- that seems to help me attain my "desired outcomes" / "goals"

[Anonymous]

Coz, thank you.

Thanks for reminding me again of Dr Albert Ellis’ work. I read your previous postings on this subject, but now that I realise I suffer from it myself, I can really appreciate the importance of his diagnosis. It really is a very disruptive state of mind to find oneself in.

Secondly, your charting of the key areas of you life has inspired me. When I look back over my old diaries and notebooks, I notice that, over and over again, I set out six or seven key areas, and tried to identify the most appealing goals within those areas. However, I never explored how those areas inter-relate for me: how my spiritual outlook effect how I feel about my family, or what ethical values that outlook might cause me to have in relation to work.

Without even putting pen to paper, I realised since yesterday that I have a very well evolved spiritual sense of things, which is closely tied to my sense of creativity. But I have lost sight of how this connects with many of the other things I must do. As I already said in relation to Napoleon Hill, I’m sure there IS a connection between the way I make decisions and my basic feelings about life, but that connection has become tangled, so that my inner sense is not feeding meaning into my everyday life.

I feel like a light has been shone onto a dark problem. It really seals the argument in favour of balance rather than single-mindedness.

Zootski, like the other posts in this thread, you have described a quieter, less fanatical, and more satisfying approach to life. Your account of the artists who have found fulfilment after working-hours reminded me that over ten years ago I had hoped to do the same as they do. But then my thinking was converted to the all-or-nothing approach which I now know is bad for me. Thanks for these inspiring real life examples.

DFE

[Anonymous]

M2CW

i have found that all this time management stuff (gtd, covey, et al) -- believe me -- i've been a time management junkie -- is like david points out in his intro -- are about developing tools. -- I'm also a tool junkie at home. one problem with tools as my wife will attest -- you can spend a lot of time looking at them, polishing them, arranging them, buying them, trying them out on scrap pieces of work,

but they are all useless unless you use them to build something -- that is unless you have a vocation as a tool builder/collector. The guys who give us these tools are tool builders -- they use the tools themselves to build other tools -- DA's whole business is about building tools and having you buy them and use them --

most of us however have to apply those tools to build something -- for some of us it may be to build a better life, for some of us, its to build a business, for some of us .... you get the picture.


in my experience, you have to know what you want to build and how you are going to build it -- thats the planning that DA spends a chapter on -- but he admits there are other tools and tool builders out there who can give you more advice on that aspect of your life -- but he offers the advice that you need to have a "desired outcome" -- a "goal" if you need to use that term -- otherwise you can never know where you want to go and can't get around to getting stuff done. Just like a trip where you know where you want to go (nyc to san francisco) and you know where san francisco is and you can plan a detailed trip map all the way there with times to stop and see all the sights in between, the reality is,there are detours, and all you can focus on at the present time is the next leg of your journey (NA).

most of the goal stuff i've studied have been big on creating a vision of what you want, and magically this is supposed appear. i know that's probably a bit harsh but I think what david is trying to get at in his approach is -- without some thought as to how you get to that big vision in the sky (50k ft level) and handle the day to day stuff that gets in your way and make some progresss (NAs) toward that desired outcome--that goal/dream/whatever will never get accomplished.


my view is that there are gifted people out there -- just as there are gifted musicians, athletes, business executives -- who can just get stuff done without a lot of thought -- however for the rest of us -- we need some structure, some plan, some technique, some right way to do things -- probably a result of our ingrained educational/culture/ etc.


I've had to do a lot of thinking about this recently.
Some people consider me successful i'm not sure i do -- i'm back at my college for a distinguished alumni award this weekend -- i have have a problem at seeing myself old enough to be "distinguished" but i struggle even more to see what makes me successful in other peoples eyes. -- I've had some goals early in life, wrote them down like a good doobie, accomplished some of them, but what i was ultimately successful at didn't turn up in those goals at all. -- those things just happened --

But, i've discovered a clue as to how they happened. As i dissect the last twenty some odd years since leaving college

what i have found as a key is that if you have the right tools in your toolkit and more importantly know how to use them, when an opportunity comes around, you'll be prepared and most likely the most prepared to take advantage of it.

The opportunity may simply be spare time to spend with your 20mo old daughter, who wants to do nothing more than sit in your lap , it may be a job promotion, it may be a new client, it may be a new job, it may be that unforeseen fork in the road, like illness, or maybe new relationships -- but believe me -- those opportunities will occur -- if you are not prepared, or don't have the right tool on hand and have practiced using it, you won't be ready -- for me thats the essense of DA "mind like water" the relaxed martial artist mentality at handling life that DA wants us to attain. -- its about preparation and readiness for execution for anything life throws at you. -- its the readiness that is the key.


that seems to be what separates the people i've seen around me on a day to day basis who i consider successful -- some people call them lucky, i think they simply have tools and techniques and have honed those tools thru work to be ready for anything. But it doesn't happen without work at making the tools work.

I think we all obsess about the question "do we have the right tool" -- i think the answer is -- have a tool, but more importantly -- do i have the right technique.


In my younger life, i was a classical guitarist-- and wanted to go from being a good one to a really great one -- i just knew that if i had a better guitar -- that if i had the right class, it would propel me to greater heights -- that my student guitar just wasn't the right tool -- my mind was forever changed when i was in a masterclass and the worldclass artist teaching the class took my instrument and made music as beautiful as any he would on his $10k instrument -- the secret (yes talent) but more importantly- honed technique over years of practice --

may seem off topic from the concept of goal -- but i've found that for most of us -- we know what we want, we just don't have a clue how to get there -- because we spend too much time floundering with everthing around us -- david's approach is to give us tools and techniques to slay the everyday dragons that get in the way of attaining them.

in my career in business for the last 15 years, i've tried to use the same approach -- have the right tools and techniques for what might come my way. -- that seems to help me attain my "desired outcomes" / "goals"

[Anonymous]

jreyes

It sounds like you have a great alternative to the ruthless goal-setter school: you have dismissed the idea that we can select a goal whose outcome is twenty years down the line, and then steer our lives towards it. Instead, you wan to be prepared for what life puts your way, and you are ready to act on those opportunities.

I read a posting a few years ago, where the poster feared that by deliberately selecting life goals, and fighting off anything else that came their way, they were removing the great sense of life’s possibilities from their lives. “Serendipity” as some people like to call it, has been recognised through the centuries. Many many people can point to a chance turn of a corner or a slight delay etc. that led them to a positive change in their lives with which they are very happy.

Now, if you have a bull-headed attitude hat says “NOTHING will knock me off my chosen course”, you will never experience this almost magical opportunity for possibilities.

As I said earlier, how can we really be sure that we know the right changes for our lives? How much of our subconscious can we access in order to make sure that our goal aligns with our deeper self?

My wife has a great explanation for instinct. She says that when something feels right, or feels wrong, that is because the deep pool of our accumulated knowledge is reacting to the choice we are trying to make. This deep process will never give us a detailed mental picture of possible outcomes, but it will give us a feeling of rightness or wrongness. It knows what we are trying to decide.

As you say, if we have the right tool-kit with us all the time, we can easily change course towards what we know is better for us: we will have the wherewithal to easily carry out the new actions required.

For me, it is the continuing sense of emptiness inside that has made me so uncomfortable with some of the goals I pursue: I have already acknowledged to myself that I am effectively battering my real inner self to death in order to turn my personality around to pursue these goals.

And it's funny you should mention guitar; I have a fine classical guitar that my wife gave me for Christmas before we were married. It has remained in its case for many years, but just recently she insisted that I bring it down stairs to keep it in the living room where it is near to hand. I think she can also see that I am not being the person she used to know.

DFE

[Anonymous]

My thought when I first saw this thead and every time since has been the same: The answer is yes. Goal setting is bad for you.

However, I am a goal-averse type person. I don't like goals because I then feel locked in and trapped into whatever course I set. Even though I choose the goal, I feel this way. I like the freedom and as another poster mentioned the serendipity and the spontaneous experiences.

The GTD way of looking at things helps me overcome this somewhat. David encourages the visualising of successful outcomes, and that I am on board with. I'm very much a runway person and start getting dizzy when I get past projects and into goals and mission statements and visions and other fluffy stuff.

So many people seem to believe that you set your goals and then all is OK, and I think you have pointed out that isn't the case. Good thread!

[Anonymous]

I found writing on this thread to be immensely therapeutic. Sitting here on Monday morning, I feel a really deep sense of change. I am suddenly happy with my whole self again. I realised that I had actually gone as far as identifying specific likes that were not contributing financially to my life, and then branding them as “bad” or “frivolous”, and ear-marking them for removal. (FAR too much reading of Brain Tracy!!)

Thanks again everybody for all the great feedback.

As I wrote my way towards this peace of mind, I noticed something: no matter how deeply I thought about the underlying currents of life, trying to get a handle on what really makes things show up when they do, and what we can or cannot realistically do about it, David Allen’s philosophy kept appearing with the answers.

I think he has seen and accepted the topography of life, and has devised GTD as the best tool-kit to help us enjoy the journey. Looking ahead and trying to blast a road towards a goal is the goal-setters approach. But when you actually reach a certain future date and look back over the period that was supposed to be the time-line for your goal, you realise that life looks completely different from that side. Dozens, maybe hundreds of little things you overlooked at the outset suddenly seem obvious. They can be anything, a milestone birthday of a relation and the great party that came with it; a wedding invitation; a family illness; somebody teaching you how to fish; a TV program that gives you a whole new insight into another country, etc. All of them subtly alter the relative values you attribute to things. How can we possibly outlaw all of these experiences in advance?

If I could finish on a much lighter note: I watched an episode of "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" over the weekend. A forty-five year old ex-model, who now wore his hair shoulder length, and had grown a grizzly beard and a grizzly complexion to go with it, got “the works” from the fab 5.

The transformation was magical. Not so much the visible transformation, but the huge change in his demeanour as the five identified various aspects of his character, and brought them out into the open through his dress-style, the home décor, and through providing him with the right outlet for his artistic carvings.

At the start of the show he was cautious, withdrawn and suspicious, but by the end he was like freed bird, and just could not stop smiling. As a fellow 45 year-old, I have to say I felt some of that liberation too after you guys helped me accept myself again, just as I am.

DFE

[CosmoGTD]

What i am about to say might sound cynical, but i do believe it to be accurate.

The self-help gurus do not want people to be "satisfied" with themselves, or their life. Why? Then they buy less product.

For instance, Tony Robbins sales method goes like this.
1) Find your customers PAIN
2) Stir up that pain, and make the customer really FEEL and ASSOCIATE to that pain.
3) Heal them with your products and services.

So when some Guru tells you to make a bunch of massive goals, and then make them MUSTS, he is doing Step 2. Making you feel worse ON PURPOSE. [That is called "The Tyranny of the Shoulds".]
Why does he do this? So you will purchase his products and services RIGHT NOW! These guys can get people so excited they will borrow money to attend their programs!!!

Dr Albert Ellis is recently teaching the concept of USA.
Unconditional Self Acceptance.
If you get a chance, look into that idea. It is about simply making the decision to accept ourselves as fallible humans, and to not give our Self a rating, and stubbornly refuse to judge our Self. Its a profound shift, and this seems to actually IMPROVE our performance and results, as we are not suffering from as much emotional disturbance, anxiety, fear, and depression. (this is sort of like having a Mind Like Water regarding the Self).

We don't need endless books and tapes, all repeating the same junk over and over again. In my view, its all a bit of a scam, manipulating people to become bottomless pits of self-dissatisfaction, who will buy an endless stream of products.
I do see value in achievement, but what is ironic is that what is preached by the so-called gurus of achievement, seems to make people's performance worse! What they are preaching seems to be designed to create repeat customers FOR LIFE.

Think of how much more productive we are when we accept ourselves, and feel good about ourselves, and how unproductive it is to get caught in the cycle of personal dissatisfaction, and self-judgement.



I found writing on this thread to be immensely therapeutic. Sitting here on Monday morning, I feel a really deep sense of change. I am suddenly happy with my whole self again. I realised that I had actually gone as far as identifying specific likes that were not contributing financially to my life, and then branding them as “bad” or “frivolous”, and ear-marking them for removal. (FAR too much reading of Brain Tracy!!)
As a fellow 45 year-old, I have to say I felt some of that liberation too after you guys helped me accept myself again, just as I am.

DFE

[Anonymous]

Thanks again Coz.

I KNEW there was some insidious process underway in my mind. I could not figure out how I arrived at the stage where I believed I had to read 4 three-inch-thick files of down-loaded print-outs (I’m not joking) plus about 30 to 40 books, before I could do my job properly. Even my boss asked my once why I felt that I had to read so many books in order to do the things I had twenty years experience at doing already.

I have often noticed that self help books read like happy ever after tales. The introduction tells of wonderful possibilities, (quadrupled income/stamina/reading-speeds, plus athletic figure, plus partner of your dreams, plus rich and rewarding family plus more time off than ever before). The first chapter then describes, quite accurately, how MY life is at the moment. (For “my” I should have read “everybody’s”: these writers are like fortune-tellers: they know the generalities about the working life in 2004, and yet can make you think that it your exclusive problem).

Then, even though the book is supposed to be the ultimate key to success, you finds that you get the same old list: set goals, prioritise, say no, etc.

At the end, they have described wonderful processes leading to wonderful outcomes, but I’m just left thinking: “yes, that’s what I want, now how do I go about achieving it? And the cycle starts all over again: another book, another profile of my problems, etc.

Another type of writer manages to get under the first line of cynical defence. This is the book/website that breaks down an activity into its constituent steps. E.g. to network better, you need to improve your ability to remember names. Ah yes! Memory improvement! How do I do that? And I’m caught again.

The third kind is similar, but it lists the things that might be wrong with you. Have you got ADD? Were you supported or subtly suppressed by your teachers/parents? Have you a fear of success? Cue thoughtful hesitation … then your clicking on the questionnaire link and considering paying $50 for the “Gold” standard personal assessment.

And all the time ordinary people about you are going about their daily lives, doing their jobs, and looking forward to a few beers on the weekend.

One fact that was jumping up and down in front of me trying to catch my attention for some time is that despite the fact that I cannot get to read all that stuff, I still find myself in a secure senior position in work.

It’s also a good indicator of where I am that the USA concept struck me as forbidden: almost a taboo. A shadowy “invisible committee” of frowning industrialists will NOT be pleased if I adopted that attitude! But it must be the most fundamental of all human rights to look at yourself and say yes, that will do me just fine thank you.

I feel a little guilty indulging in a debunking session in the GTD website. But it goes without saying that DA does not, and does not need to crank up our pain in order to score a quick sale with us. I have always been mystified by the amount of free stuff he gives us. But I have paid for the hardcover, and that contains everything he has told me. It’s just that by comparison with other sites and systems, DA’s seems virtually free of charge. He didn’t have to exaggerate a problem, it was already there: mental log-jam. He dwells on the problem just long enough to let us know where he is coming form, and what the objective of his system is, and then he delivers, big time.

DFE

[mikaels]

I tend to disagree with goal-averse people. Every single living organism has a goal: to survive and to grow. Trees (especially the mighty ones) teach a lot about this. The thing is that life comes with no guarantees whatsoever and all of one's work may turn to dust. There is no such thing as a risk- or carefree life. Does it mean that you should be content with what you have and live without wanting anything? Or that you should want only reasonable things (what is reasonable, anyway?)? That life should be about safety and security and without risks?

What if you would have a goal of something interesting?
What is the measure then?

Are goals something unalterable, set in stone once formulated? Goals are nothing but more or less defined wants and desires. If a goal does not serve you anymore, how about scrapping that goal then? It does not mean that you've stopped wanting. A human's needs and wants stop only at death.

To get somewhere it's usually good to know where you are. What is true and what is real? This has been the quest of philosophers, all of them from Socrates to Wittgenstein. Have they always been right? No, even the truth reformulates constantly. Has their work been in vain? The world's universities beg to disagree.

Maybe it's a question of semantics then. What does the word goal mean to you? Are goals just wishful thinking that somehow magically and instantly get every single desire fulfilled? That would be a bit naive.

There are people who practise something (musicians, artists, athletes) for all of their lives and become good at it after let's say 10 to 20 years of practise. Are they crazy in their strivings? Are all goals futile when there are no guarantees whatsoever that you get what you are after?

To me it seems that goalless people still have goals: comfort of a home, financial security etc.. They must somehow want those things, otherwise they wouldn't even get out of the bed in the morning.

I think that it is very advantageous to be clear about what you want. Clarity of goals is necessary so that one may think clearly of one's wants and desires. It is very desirable to know why you want the things you want, so you don't bang your head against the wall just because someone else (your parents, your kids, your family, church, magazines, books, politics, ideologies, society at large...basically anyone else) says it's good for you. This does not mean that no-one else matters, it means that you have to do some thinking about what things mean to you.

[Anonymous]

mikaels

Yes, it looks like a lot of things are being gathered together under the heading “goals”. I think a lot of them used to be called “duties”, or maybe “life’s milestones”.

A few years ago, I’m sure very few people called marriage, health, hobbies or a good salary, “goals”. They were just part of life. They were “what we do”

I think the goal-setter salesmen have commandeered a lot of life’s givens, repackaged them, and are trying to sell them back to us.

Philosophically speaking, we are all going somewhere. We want each day to be better than the last. Even the couch-potato is looking for more ways to be comfortable, higher quality snacks, and a better remote. Our minds are not made to be static. Nobody willingly embraces ground-hog day syndrome.

As you say, everyone wants to have interesting things in their lives. Again, this is not the property of goal-setters, it is human nature. No one on Earth will desire to walk away from something they consider really interesting.

The 20-year goals-setter is taking a huge risk. If they are successful, it will often benefit us all: musicians, researchers, artists etc. But if they fail, can they find consolation in saying that they did their best?

I fully agree with your argument and your conclusions. It is a good thing to be clear in our thinking, and to be organised and thorough in our approach. This was once called “living a good life”.

Personally, when I think of goal setters, I think of mountain climbers, or arctic explorers, or amateur marathon runners: they need to prove something to themselves, and are not content with making a really good job of their normal lives.

“Improvements” might be a better word than goals in many cases. Is weight-loss a goal or a physical improvement?

Traditionally, only our academic education is formalised. But there is an ocean of common sense that needs to be gathered together also. Most of us stumble through life – we generally do what we hear of other people doing, we often don’t recognise that many obstacles can actually be solved, and instead we accept them as part of life. Our only source of solutions is friends, acquaintances and chance conversations.

I have noticed reviews on Amazon attacking Anthony Robbins with the argument that his stuff is nothing special, it’s just common sense. I don’t think these attackers are devaluing common sense, I think they are just annoyed that someone is trying to make money simply by presenting it so clearly.

To those of us living typical muddles lives, the chance to walk to the South Pole seems like a great way to get a big dose of self-esteem and pride. But ordinary life will be waiting for us afterwards.

DFE

[mikaels]

DFE

This is truly a wonderful thread, thanks for starting it!


The 20-year goals-setter is taking a huge risk. If they are successful, it will often benefit us all: musicians, researchers, artists etc. But if they fail, can they find consolation in saying that they did their best?

Actually they find the work interesting in itself. Every day is a source of contentment. People of this ilk are not happy or in bliss all the time, but they seem to have a notion of being who they want to be. One musician friend of mine has a stated goal "to be one with music". The goal is then not an instrument for lets say financial success, but an end in itself! No consolation is thus needed in that sense. Artists worry about different things, but they worry a lot nevertheless. Goals are clear enough.


I fully agree with your argument and your conclusions. It is a good thing to be clear in our thinking, and to be organised and thorough in our approach. This was once called “living a good life”.

That sounds great to me, living a good life! The word "good" is actually fascinating, Robert Pirsig wrote his books (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance and Lila) about the meaning of this single word (I guess a lot of other authors have done the same). Most of us seem to struggle when we are finding out what "good" means to us personally. Does it mean loads of money, does it mean materialistic abundance or does it mean something else all together? The bigger question arising is whether you are as a person doing anything good and for whose benefit? What does "good" mean every single moment in life?


Personally, when I think of goal setters, I think of mountain climbers, or arctic explorers, or amateur marathon runners: they need to prove something to themselves, and are not content with making a really good job of their normal lives.

I would call these people giants:)


Traditionally, only our academic education is formalised. But there is an ocean of common sense that needs to be gathered together also. Most of us stumble through life – we generally do what we hear of other people doing, we often don’t recognise that many obstacles can actually be solved, and instead we accept them as part of life. Our only source of solutions is friends, acquaintances and chance conversations.

Books, libraries, magazines, films, internet, imagination and discontentment are good sources for change also in my view. There are so many fantastic books and films about goals and/or living a good life. Some of my favorites are Apocalypse Now! (movie) by Francis Coppola, Essays (book) by Michel de Montaigne, Pirsig's books, Zen and the art of archery (book) by Eugen Herrigel, Moby Dick (book) by Melville, Walden and civil disobedience (book) by Henry David Thoreau, just to name a few. Even the goal-setter-salesmens books might have something to offer, you might just find out that the programs they sell are really not for you:). Of course there are works of art which are even more inspirational just by being what they are. The movie Chicago is a immense display of skill. The sheer existence of Star Wars movies is a goal of 30+ years from the first idea to end product.

[Anonymous]

This has been a most thought-provoking thread, DFE. My thanks to you and all the other contributors.
From my experience, I think the answer to your question is “yes, but only if they are the wrong goals”. What do I mean by a “wrong” goal? Covey’s metaphor is that of climbing the ladder of success only to get to the top and say “is this all there is”?
My experience is that of getting half-way up one ladder, then thinking it’s the wrong one, coming down again, starting on a different ladder, getting half-way up that one before coming down; moving on to ladder 3, going half-way up it, then down again before moving on to ladder 4 (by way of a detour to ladder one again), and so on …
Having been prompted to reflect on these matters by this thread, I’m beginning to think that (due to my own less than critical application of material presented by Covey, Robbins et al – hey, I am responsible for my own destiny after all!) I’ve pursued the “wrong” goals – things I thought that I wanted, but (taking a longer view) I can now see were not truly “me”. In simple terms, I fell into the trap of “the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence”
I think that over the last 10 years, since I discovered “success” strategies, and time and self/life management tools, ironically, I’ve become less “successful”. My wife maintains (probably correctly) that I achieved a lot more (and was much less self-centred) before I’d heard of Success Conditioning. Since I became a Highly Effective Person, it seems that a lot less has got done around the house and my relationship with her and our kids has taken a back seat because I’ve been too busy planning, organising, and being effective. My career (in what I used to think of as the “day” job) has stalled because of a lack of commitment engendered by doubt over “what I want to do with my life”. I think she’s a very perceptive woman (for all that she hasn’t read 7 Habits, GTD, or fire-walked at Unleash the Power Within – how come??!!!)
This focus on (so-called) “real” goals (the ones I come up with after goal-setting workshops or “achievement” seminars etc.) is beginning to appear to have been nothing more than dithering over how I don’t like (aspects of) being a lawyer and thinking that I’d really much rather be (no, its my mission/purpose to be) a frozen yoghurt franchisor, a church deacon, a publisher, Christian Rock Musician, life-coach; novelist, - whatever seems right at present – and over the last 10 years all of those have at different times been what I thought was my “true” mission). My focus and actions on these things (prompted by too much, or maybe not enough, or at least not critical enough, musing over what I “really” want to do) has just distracted me from what in fact I ought to be doing i.e. in chasing after the wrong goals (albeit they seemed right at the time) I have in fact lost sight of what is actually most important.
I think what I’m gradually realising (through GTD and this thread, amongst other things) is that before we commit to anything, whether a runway level task or a major project, it is absolutely critical to do the work upstream in deciding what we’re about so that when “stuff” comes at us we can process it appropriately. Not only to do that work, but to get it right, from a proper awareness of who we are, our skills, interest, talents and so on.
So I do think that we need goals and that if they are the right ones, they are good for us. We do need to work out our own unique vision and mission from which those goals logically should be derived, and invest them with emotional “oomph”. But we also need to be sure that the vision, the goals, are what we truly want. For me this is the really challenging part - how do we really know or discover what is our destiny (in time to be able to do something about it?) and distinguish it from something that might even be worthy or desirable (perhaps even achievable), but which ultimately, is only a chimera, prompted by that tape programme we’re currently listening to, or book, or seminar?
I’ve struggled in my implementation of GTD at precisely this point – I’ve logged absolutely everything that’s showed up and can tell you a fair chunk of what’s got done or is still in inventory, but when I look at what I’ve really achieved, that’s a lot harder to say.
I think GTD itself does not assist here directly, except possibly in carving out time for reflection through getting many things out of the way and in encouraging a Weekly Review. In fact, it seems to me that GTD will work best if this prior definition of the higher altitudes has been done - maybe its covered in “Leveraging Focus and Vision” or whatever its called. Now, where can I get a tape on that?
Apologies for the ramble but like DFE I’ve found this therapeutic in helping me to clarify things that have been nagging away at me for some time.

[Anonymous]

Jamie

Your story reads so like my experiences: I’m fifty percent astonished, and fifty percent relieved that I was not the only one.

I do notice, however, that you are still using goal-setting terms, for example, “Destiny”. Your ultimate destiny is to die. Our second last destiny is to look back over our lives, and hopefully see that we engaged with as many of the things that came our way as we could – our kid, the summer, other places etc.

You also seem to be reviewing your GTD inventory for achievements. Yes, achievements are nice, but there are a hell of a lot of experiences that are valid, enjoyable, and, I believe, essential, which do not have the word “achievement“ attached to them. A walk on the beach on a quiet afternoon is not an achievement, but try telling me that it is not worthy and valuable, maybe even priceless.

I think a lot of goal-setter gurus try to take the life of a successful individual as a model, and then try to tell us the unique things that that person did which we should be trying to copy.

But are they right? Did these people have passionate desires to succeed against all odds? Did they “know” what they wanted deep in their hearts right form the start? Were they uniquely in touch with their innermost desires?

I would rather ask them these questions than accept the sales pitch of the latest new-kid-on-the-block guru.

I said in one of my posts that I found writing on the thread to be very therapeutic. The great news is that that was just the start of it. All sorts of stupidly buried aspects of me are resurfacing, and claiming their rightful place alongside my working life.

Ok, I am not going to be world class in any of them, nor am I going to make any money form them, but that terrible perception which said that they were pointless because of their lack of financial value has been removed.

It is shocking to realise the extent to which I had devalued the things I love. Everything got trampled into the dirt for the sake of “prioritising my number one goals”. Now I realise that there are so many ways to value things – the world just hasn’t worked out how to measure the values.

For example, two huge favourites of mine were writing poetry (won prizes, but never made a penny), and reading science fiction (What? That book in your hand is not a business book?).

But let me tell you, I had completely lost all memory of how much pleasure both of these give me. How do you evaluate this pleasure? Don’t know – don’t care. But they give me a deep sense of life being just right.


As I was was falling asleep last night, I had an image of a very tall, dramatic, magician playing to an audience. The magician had our attention riveted on three cards in his hand, Fame, Success, and Money. He grew and grew, and we were all more mesmerised with each passing minute.

Then, (as in all the best Disney movies), a bored child wanders behind the magician’s cloak, and finds everything else – family, hobbies, whimsical pleasures, friends, doing nothing, beer – shoved under a table out of sight.

The child shouts “hey!”, we all look, and the magician’s power is shattered. We take each item in turn from under the table, and admire them with renewed appreciation and deep fondness.

Another stream of thoughts that have been hitting me over the last two weeks are insights into how a lot of common sense is twisted out of context to fit into the new packages of “goal-setting”.

Goal setting is marketed in such a way that we are led to believe that we can ignore all of the small things and ideas in our lives, because if we can just succeed at one or two big things, then everything will work out fine.

But now I think a different model is more relevant. Funnily enough, I probably came across this metaphor in an Anthony Robbins context – but it is one of his less dynamic ones. It is the idea of an oil tanker. These take many miles to turn, but eventually the new direction is attained.

There are important things in our lives that we should be steering in this manner. We are not going to get financial success or the perfect family by way of setting “smart” goals. These things cannot be isolated from the rest of life and worked on separately in the way that, say, a runner’s lap-times can be developed.

Instead, (probably entering Covey territory here) we need to always make sure that we spend good quality time on the important things in our lives. We cannot separate our finances or our relationship with our children from the sea of things that involve us every day, but we can make sure to spend quality time on them regularly so that they end up where we want them.

Once again, thank you David Allen – in GTD, “write a poem” and “buy an investment property” are side by side on my personal projects listing. Each of them has one NA, and I am totally happy to spend a half hour with pen and paper in the evening writing a few lines, or a half hour at my home computer working out a Cashflow to show the bank manager.

There are no massive priorities commandeering my evenings, and having been down both roads, I can testify that this feels a lot more like life should feel.



DFE

[Anonymous]

Jamie

Your story reads so like my experiences: I’m fifty percent astonished, and fifty percent relieved that I was not the only one.

I do notice, however, that you are still using goal-setting terms, for example, “Destiny”. Your ultimate destiny is to die. Our second last destiny is to look back over our lives, and hopefully see that we engaged with as many of the things that came our way as we could – our kid, the summer, other places etc.

You also seem to be reviewing your GTD inventory for achievements. Yes, achievements are nice, but there are a hell of a lot of experiences that are valid, enjoyable, and, I believe, essential, which do not have the word “achievement“ attached to them. A walk on the beach on a quiet afternoon is not an achievement, but try telling me that it is not worthy and valuable, maybe even priceless.

I think a lot of goal-setter gurus try to take the life of a successful individual as a model, and then try to tell us the unique things that that person did which we should be trying to copy.

But are they right? Did these people have passionate desires to succeed against all odds? Did they “know” what they wanted deep in their hearts right form the start? Were they uniquely in touch with their innermost desires?

I would rather ask them these questions than accept the sales pitch of the latest new-kid-on-the-block guru.

I said in one of my posts that I found writing on the thread to be very therapeutic. The great news is that that was just the start of it. All sorts of stupidly buried aspects of me are resurfacing, and claiming their rightful place alongside my working life.

Ok, I am not going to be world class in any of them, nor am I going to make any money form them, but that terrible perception which said that they were pointless because of their lack of financial value has been removed.

It is shocking to realise the extent to which I had devalued the things I love. Everything got trampled into the dirt for the sake of “prioritising my number one goals”. Now I realise that there are so many ways to value things – the world just hasn’t worked out how to measure the values.

For example, two huge favourites of mine were writing poetry (won prizes, but never made a penny), and reading science fiction (What? That book in your hand is not a business book?).

But let me tell you, I had completely lost all memory of how much pleasure both of these give me. How do you evaluate this pleasure? Don’t know – don’t care. But they give me a deep sense of life being just right.


As I was was falling asleep last night, I had an image of a very tall, dramatic, magician playing to an audience. The magician had our attention riveted on three cards in his hand, Fame, Success, and Money. He grew and grew, and we were all more mesmerised with each passing minute.

Then, (as in all the best Disney movies), a bored child wanders behind the magician’s cloak, and finds everything else – family, hobbies, whimsical pleasures, friends, doing nothing, beer – shoved under a table out of sight.

The child shouts “hey!”, we all look, and the magician’s power is shattered. We take each item in turn from under the table, and admire them with renewed appreciation and deep fondness.

Another stream of thoughts that have been hitting me over the last two weeks are insights into how a lot of common sense is twisted out of context to fit into the new packages of “goal-setting”.

Goal setting is marketed in such a way that we are led to believe that we can ignore all of the small things and ideas in our lives, because if we can just succeed at one or two big things, then everything will work out fine.

But now I think a different model is more relevant. Funnily enough, I probably came across this metaphor in an Anthony Robbins context – but it is one of his less dynamic ones. It is the idea of an oil tanker. These take many miles to turn, but eventually the new direction is attained.

There are important things in our lives that we should be steering in this manner. We are not going to get financial success or the perfect family by way of setting “smart” goals. These things cannot be isolated from the rest of life and worked on separately in the way that, say, a runner’s lap-times can be developed.

Instead, (probably entering Covey territory here) we need to always make sure that we spend good quality time on the important things in our lives. We cannot separate our finances or our relationship with our children from the sea of things that involve us every day, but we can make sure to spend quality time on them regularly so that they end up where we want them.

Once again, thank you David Allen – in GTD, “write a poem” and “buy an investment property” are side by side on my personal projects listing. Each of them has one NA, and I am totally happy to spend a half hour with pen and paper in the evening writing a few lines, or a half hour at my home computer working out a Cashflow to show the bank manager.

There are no massive priorities commandeering my evenings, and having been down both roads, I can testify that this feels a lot more like life should feel.



DFE

[Anonymous]

Jamie

Your story reads so like my experiences: I’m fifty percent astonished, and fifty percent relieved that I was not the only one.

I do notice, however, that you are still using goal-setting terms, for example, “Destiny”. Your ultimate destiny is to die. Our second last destiny is to look back over our lives, and hopefully see that we engaged with as many of the things that came our way as we could – our kid, the summer, other places etc.

You also seem to be reviewing your GTD inventory for achievements. Yes, achievements are nice, but there are a hell of a lot of experiences that are valid, enjoyable, and, I believe, essential, which do not have the word “achievement“ attached to them. A walk on the beach on a quiet afternoon is not an achievement, but try telling me that it is not worthy and valuable, maybe even priceless.

I think a lot of goal-setter gurus try to take the life of a successful individual as a model, and then try to tell us the unique things that that person did which we should be trying to copy.

But are they right? Did these people have passionate desires to succeed against all odds? Did they “know” what they wanted deep in their hearts right form the start? Were they uniquely in touch with their innermost desires?

I would rather ask them these questions than accept the sales pitch of the latest new-kid-on-the-block guru.

I said in one of my posts that I found writing on the thread to be very therapeutic. The great news is that that was just the start of it. All sorts of stupidly buried aspects of me are resurfacing, and claiming their rightful place alongside my working life.

Ok, I am not going to be world class in any of them, nor am I going to make any money form them, but that terrible perception which said that they were pointless because of their lack of financial value has been removed.

It is shocking to realise the extent to which I had devalued the things I love. Everything got trampled into the dirt for the sake of “prioritising my number one goals”. Now I realise that there are so many ways to value things – the world just hasn’t worked out how to measure the values.

For example, two huge favourites of mine were writing poetry (won prizes, but never made a penny), and reading science fiction (What? That book in your hand is not a business book?).

But let me tell you, I had completely lost all memory of how much pleasure both of these give me. How do you evaluate this pleasure? Don’t know – don’t care. But they give me a deep sense of life being just right.


As I was was falling asleep last night, I had an image of a very tall, dramatic, magician playing to an audience. The magician had our attention riveted on three cards in his hand, Fame, Success, and Money. He grew and grew, and we were all more mesmerised with each passing minute.

Then, (as in all the best Disney movies), a bored child wanders behind the magician’s cloak, and finds everything else – family, hobbies, whimsical pleasures, friends, doing nothing, beer – shoved under a table out of sight.

The child shouts “hey!”, we all look, and the magician’s power is shattered. We take each item in turn from under the table, and admire them with renewed appreciation and deep fondness.

Another stream of thoughts that have been hitting me over the last two weeks are insights into how a lot of common sense is twisted out of context to fit into the new packages of “goal-setting”.

Goal setting is marketed in such a way that we are led to believe that we can ignore all of the small things and ideas in our lives, because if we can just succeed at one or two big things, then everything will work out fine.

But now I think a different model is more relevant. Funnily enough, I probably came across this metaphor in an Anthony Robbins context – but it is one of his less dynamic ones. It is the idea of an oil tanker. These take many miles to turn, but eventually the new direction is attained.

There are important things in our lives that we should be steering in this manner. We are not going to get financial success or the perfect family by way of setting “smart” goals. These things cannot be isolated from the rest of life and worked on separately in the way that, say, a runner’s lap-times can be developed.

Instead, (probably entering Covey territory here) we need to always make sure that we spend good quality time on the important things in our lives. We cannot separate our finances or our relationship with our children from the sea of things that involve us every day, but we can make sure to spend quality time on them regularly so that they end up where we want them.

Once again, thank you David Allen – in GTD, “write a poem” and “buy an investment property” are side by side on my personal projects listing. Each of them has one NA, and I am totally happy to spend a half hour with pen and paper in the evening writing a few lines, or a half hour at my home computer working out a Cashflow to show the bank manager.

There are no massive priorities commandeering my evenings, and having been down both roads, I can testify that this feels a lot more like life should feel.



DFE

[Anonymous]

Sorry,

I've no idea why that posted three times, I usually only say things once!

DFE

[ceehjay]

Very nice post!

I think you can delete your extra posts. There should be an X in the upper right corner of your own posts -- I believe that's the delete spot.

Carolyn

[furashgf]

A lot of people seem kind of torqued that GTD doesn't have a heavy life-goal focus. In one of the GTD books there's an example where, years later, he looks back on a mindmap he made and is suprised how many of the things have materialized - but he didn't actually do a Steven Covey 7 Habits plan to get there.

I'm not sure its valid to look at "Succesfull" people, then build a system around it. The reason is you're telling the story "backwards," e.g., "how did you become so succesful? I set all these goals and got to them."

- My guess is that there are tons of people who also set life goals this way and failed, but you never interview them so you don't notice. They're probably unhappy because they've failed.
- My guess is that the successful people were actually less goal directed at the time than they seemed in retrospect. They probably took advantages of opportunities that they were prepared for, then later when describing it made it seem like a rung in the ladder.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. Brian Tracy writes that he wrote down an income goal for himself when he was a young man. He mislaid and totally forgot about the piece of paper, but came across it some years later and was pleasantly surprised to see that he had achieved or exceeded the amount.

So, if the great Brian Tracy did NOT do all the usual goals-setting stuff - review goals daily, get excited, visualise, mentally rehearse, prioritise ruthlessly, ensure that they conform to the SMART format etc, - and yet still managed to achieve and exceed his goal, then it kinda discredits the whole goal-setter routine doesn’t it?

It actually overwhelmingly proves the contrary – he was going there anyway. Like you said, it is easy to look back and find a grand plan that fits the actual outcomes that occurred, but is this plan REALLY a model for all to follow? Is it a comprehensive explanation of the success of that individual?

If, say, someone made a fortune in Jacuzzis, does that mean they were model goal-setters ... or that they rode the wave of popular demand that surrounded Jacuzzis when they first became widely available?

There are numerous influences on how things work out – economic, biological, sheer chance, etc. To say that goal-setting can take on and defeat ALL of these influences is psychological snake-oil.

I think the “R” in the SMART acronym (“Realistic”) is the most relevant factor – there is no magic-lamp effect. Simply being organised will achieve vastly more that being all fired up. A good dose of self-discipline will get you much farther than looking at pictures of goals, reading lists, or repeating mantras.


DFE

[pd_workman]

I have learned a lot about myself over the past few years by setting the wrong goals. I went about it the right way - I analyzed my values, what I really wanted, what was missing from my life, what my limiting paradigms were, what my dreams and aspirations were, etc. I set the goal, broke it down, and put in the time and effort necessary to complete the steps. And then I found that, as they say, my ladder was leaning against the wrong wall.

Some examples:

I am a writer. I have always been a writer. I have samples of books and parts of books that I wrote as early as age 6. I write for the sheer creative joy of bringing something wonderful and interesting into being that did not exist before. Taking something out of my imagination and making it concrete. Others have asked me before why I do not try to get my work published, and I always said that I write for myself, not for others. Well, in a recent yearly review I decided that if I was happy writing in my spare time, I would be even happier if I could make some money, even a living, doing it. And that if my writing was good and made me happy, I would be even happier if it affected the lives of other people. So I followed the appropriate procedure and set to work getting published. And I found out that I didn't like it. Getting published was hard work and took away the joy of writing. I stopped writing. No fun. I came to the realization that I had no interest in sacrificing my writing to get published. So I stopped working on publishing and went back to writing.

It has been a long-time dream of myself and my husband to work together on a home-based business. I currently work out of the home and he is a stay at home dad. We wanted to be business partners. I wanted to spend more time with my son. I wanted to be closer to home and have the freedom to do what I wanted when I wanted to. We decided a couple of years back that it was time to take some steps towards attaining our dream. I read all of the right books, worked on business plans, cards, letterheads, newsletters, networking, marketing, etc. etc. And I found out a whole bunch of things. I don't like working with my husband. He doesn't do what he's told and has a whole other vision of how things should be done. He doesn't set goals. I was still working outside the home, and trying to "run" a home-based business in my free time. The tension spilled over into our family life. Whenever I tried to do work at home, our son wanted attention and couldn't understand why I was glued to the computer and never had time for him. Didn't everybody understand that this was for them? Our home life was one huge fight. I had no free time. I took a good hard look at what we were doing and made several vital realizations. First, I have a steady paycheck. That goes out the door if I go home, no matter how much building we do before that. I have benefits and insurance. At the end of the work day I can just leave everything behind and go home to my family. I like getting out of the house during the day. I like the work that I do, I find it fulfilling. I like the people I work with and the challenges. I like the clients. I like being away from my family for a while during the day. I had been making myself miserable at work pining for a dream, when I really did like my job. I don't like marketing. I don't like working with my husband. In short, that dream was nothing like reality.

Do I still want those underlying things - more free time, time with my family, etc.? Yes, and I have found ways to achieve those without sacrificing everything else. Do I want to work at home with my husband? Not a chance. Do I still have an interest in getting published? Only if it happens naturally as an outgrowth of what I am doing.

So I made some wrong goals, and I learned a huge amount about what makes me happy and what is important to me by doing so. Putting the ladder against the wrong wall and starting to climb it gave me perspective and helped me to see the wall that I really wanted to put the ladder against. The secret is to *stop climbing* and readjust.

Pam

[CosmoGTD]

I see 2 separate issues.

1) How do you get more of what you want, and less of what you don't want.

2) What info people are SELLING about #1.

On the most basic level, every organism is a goal-seeking machine. Food, water, mating, etc.

My beef is not with setting out to get what you want. To me that is great. Its HOW one goes about it, that matters.

What we have out there, are MANY salesmen selling countless programs to allegedly help us get more of what we want. But the problem is, many of these programs have "bad info" in them, in my opinion.

Some of the worst, in my view, are people like Wayne Dyer, and Deepak Chopra, and the New Age crowd. If you read that stuff, they basically say just Visualize you wildest Dreams, write them down on a piece of paper, and by using MindPower you can Manifest them into your reality, and let the Universe handle all of the details... Well...give it a try...good luck...

Then you have the Brian Tracy type folks, who give a reasonable strategy to achieve goals, and basically every program they sell is about achieving goals. They have about 37 different programs all teaching the same thing, with different titles.
Then you have the Tony Robbins scene, where there are some reasonable strategies, BUT, he claims you must make your goals a MUST, which is going to drive you crazy, and be counterproductive. (I personally believe that Robbins is 100% aware of this, and frankly, that is why he recommends it. Its about stirring up the customers PAIN, and then healing this pain with your products and services).

The problem is that these Goal Salesmen, use the IDEA of getting more of what you want, to SELL you stuff, that is, more of their programs. They take a valid idea, and then they get you to believe that their system is going to show you exactly how to get what you want in life. Some of these guys, like Robbins, even have these courses that go up to 50K to teach you his Occult secrets of the Universe!!!! Seriously! They even try to train you to believe you NEED a superexpensive "coach" to achieve your objectives. Do we notice how all of the strategies are upsells to more expensive products and services?

I say its mainly BS supersalesmanship.
I say its much simpler than this.
You set your Objective, based on your Values, and then you set to taking your Actions, and persist over time, and seize opportunities, be flexible, never give up, etc.
What the Goals Salesmen do, is to get you to Phantasize about your wildest dreams, and ideals. They build you up, giving you a Big Claim. They say you can have everything you DESIRE.
Then...they tell you that their programs will show you how to do it. Sales 101.

That's the problem from my point of view.
How to sort the valuable info, from the manipulative, self-serving salesmanship, bad info and wishful thinking.

So for me, it comes down to figuring out the best strategies for getting more of what we want.

Select a project (Outcome-Goal), and DO THE VERY NEXT ACTION.
Sounds simple but its very profound.

[CosmoGTD]

PS:
One point i forgot to make, that others have mentioned, is that all of the Goal-Setting stuff can actually make people do WORSE!
It can become an AVOIDANCE strategy.
Instead of Just Doing It, like many successful people do, some people who are AFRAID of failing, rejection, etc, instead focus on Goal-Setting, and Wishful Thinking, and they fall behind.
I have heard many people say that they got better results BEFORE they knew any of this Goal-Setting stuff!!!
In my view, this is because all of the Goal-Setting is just a way to AVOID doing the hard work, and risking failure and rejection.

[Rainer Burmeister]

Coz,

of course you are right. The kind of unrealistic goal-setting that you describe can lead to isolation, fear and avoidance. If a person only sees herself or himself in that dream or goal and forgets everyone else than there is no way to reach that goal. The machine is reved up but there's no gear for "the rubber to meet the road".

But that doesn't mean that setting goals is generally bad. Goals must be realistic and communication with your spouse, children, friends, siblings, parents, co-workers, bosses, neighbours, club members etc is key to realistic goal setting.

Those BS salesmen are utilizing the fact that many people are socially isolated, in financial debt and deperately searching for a way out of their misery. But instead of showing them how they can learn to help themselves those salesmen are just keeping them in dependency.

Whenever I read stuff like "All you need is a burning desire and an unwavering vision of what will eventually materialize" I have to laugh out loud because I curb my desires to keep the balance on the way that is my goal.

Thanks
Rainer

[Anonymous]

What the Goals Salesmen do, is to get you to Phantasize about your wildest dreams, and ideals. They build you up, giving you a Big Claim. They say you can have everything you DESIRE.
Then...they tell you that their programs will show you how to do it. Sales 101.


Light bulb award to Coz – you put it so well.

Normally, a salesman has to paint a wonderful picture for us of what his product can do. Some do it subtly, some dramatically.

But goal-setter salesmen: they get US to paint the wonderful picture by getting us to imagine what ever we could have if there were no limits.

Then they tell us their product can get it for us.

Unbelievable.

Second light-bulb award to Rainer.

I have often tried to visualise who these guys were REALLY writing for. Tony Robbins’s Notes from a Friend got me close to the truth, although I did not spot it: his stuff is for the poor and the desperate, who can only go upwards, and who really have nothing to lose by committing themselves “passionately” to a plan of action.

The other target audience implied by these books is a lonely twenty year old man, who has probably neglected his education, and who has just woken up to realise that the live-for-today teenage fantasy was a myth. He also has nothing to lose, and needs to make a massive effort to get on course for a reasonable life.

But it is a different story for those of us who’s lives have progressed on a number of different fronts. We have embedded ourselves into commitments of a family/financial nature, and we really cannot fling ourselves madly into any single project.

To answer you Coz (“I would be interested in seeing what others do to get more of what they want”) I think being more organised, getting streamlined, dropping old bad habits and developing new good habits, are the things that will get us to move towards the things we want.

Left to ourselves, we are unlikely to do any crazy goal setting. But we will probably aim to do the things that our friends and acquaintances do. Ted and Sally have a cabin in the country; Mary goes to a gym; Betty is taking up a history course in September; and so on.

These things are “normal” in the context of the world and lifestyle we are familiar with. Speaking for myself, I never feel I have to “get passionate” or “prioritise ruthlessly” in order to copy my friends – instead, I feel I have to get organised, get a little self discipline, start saving, get to bed earlier, get up earlier, read a brochure and so on.

In other words, the wherewithal to copy my friends is already easily within my grasp.

(In fact, I think one of the things I have noticed about audacious goals is that there is a critical information gap – and this lack of information and experience is the mine-field where we can perish, or at least, experience unbearable stress).

So, to answer your question Coz – I have joined a gym to shed the 15 pounds I gained since last year; to catch up on my reading, (I have hundreds of books) I picked out 25, so I can now just put away the rest neatly on the shelves, and forget about them until next year; to acquire an investment property I am meeting a couple of financial advisers to make sure I understand the full tax impact; and so on.

One thing I find extremely hard to accept is the limited amount of time I have. I wrestle endlessly with the shape of my day. It took me three months to decide that morning was the best time for gym. I wanted to real ALL of my books NOW, but as soon as I accepted the limitation and made a small selection, I settled into “relaxed productivity” on the reading front.

I look out for little techniques: I really like the idea of rewarding oneself after getting a task done (as someone once pointed out, it can even be as simple a reward as tossing your pencil in the air – the main thing is that you do not allow yourself to do it until the task is done).

I like Alec MacKenzie’s description of the compulsive finisher.

Basically, I think this a case of micro-management – try to develop a way of making little decisions about what-to-do-next that keep you on course (the oil-tanker metaphor again).

DFE

[Rainer Burmeister]

DFE,

thank you for the light-bulb award! :D

I really like that oil-tanker metaphor.
Micro-management? That means managing your own energy, right?
And what about sleep management? :wink:

Regards
Rainer

[Anonymous]

Hi there, you are touching on many challenging issues, and i feel your pain!
I am a "creative" type, and have many friends in that line of work, so i see the conflicts that arise with other aspects of life, especially Family. I have creative friends who have "had" to take out of town jobs, thus sacrificing being close to their children. That is tough stuff.

I do not have the total answer, and am not a totally balanced person. BUT, from a young age i never wanted to "just make a living", and then do what i REALLY wanted to do as a hobby.
I turned my deepest passions into my livelihood.

BUT, there are always serious challenges.
I will throw out one idea i use.

For instance, for part of my living, i am a singer, and a film actor. Those used to be Dreams of mine, now they are Jobs. What i learned though, is that even these creative dream jobs still have lots of HASSLES. They still have lots of little details. So-called Creativity seems to me to be lots of very detailed work! GTD is great for this. The so-called Creative part is sorta just flying by the seat of my pants and pretending i know what i am doing!

Also, i personally still have to do LOTS of things i would prefer i did not have to do. I still have to do crappy performing jobs at times, just for the money.
How i made this OK in my mind was very simple.

Every organism has to Survive. Humans throughout evolution have had to hunt and gather, etc to survive. I am no different. The difference is that we live in a pecuniary society, so i call this $urvival. We all basically have to do things to make the money we need to $urvive. So frankly, even as a so-called Creative person, more than 50% of my time is doing these types of so-called "soulless" activities. That's just the way the world works, so i ACCEPT it now, and then its not so bad. Its just like a bumble-bee getting his honey!
So basically, we ALL have to do that crap, so we might as well accept it, and if not enjoy it, then at least tolerate it.

Lastly, over the years i have evolved a visual image for my entire life. I have drawn and redrawn it COUNTLESS times on a large sheet of drafting paper.
I have chosen to represent my entire life as a SPHERE, and have marked out all of my main areas of life. Career, Capital, Home, Relationships, Physical, Psychological, Philosophical, Technological, Travel, etc etc.
I have 3 main areas, Career-Self-Relationships, which divide into 14 basic areas, and these break down Fractally into more areas. (sort of like Roles, and sub-roles).
It would take a very long time to describe the entire thing, but suffice it to say that it is a Visual-Linguistic overview of my entire Self and Life. All of the different areas are connected with all of the other areas. They feed off of each other.
So for instance, improving my Interpersonal skills, improves several areas of my life, including Creative!!
I had to do this, as when i was younger, i was totally single-minded in the pursuit of creative career goals, and this produced some undesirable results!

So i don't have everything "perfect" now, but i do have a comprehensive Visual-Linguistic structure, that contains the entirety of my existence.
In the center of the sphere is my ultimate life purpose. This is the CENTER of the entire thing. Its similar to what Frankl says in "Mans Search For Meaning".
Then there is a hierarchy of Values, and "Goals" and objectives, and ideas i am always moving toward.
On the outer edges of the sphere is the mundane day to day real life stuff.

So just looking at this, and thinking about it, reminds me of what i am doing with my "life", all the way from the Cosmic to running errands, and cleaning the toilet. In my mind, it is a unified unbroken wholeness. It is always growing and changing, and the core of this is a type of "North Star" which integrates the entire structure. So literally no matter what i am doing, it ALWAYS fits somewhere within this structure. Even writing this note fits into it. So no matter where i am or what i am doing, i can measure it against this structure.

Its hard to describe all of this, but i know its just a structure in my mind, to give my life meaning, structure, and direction.

You could start with only 3 areas...
Professional/Personal/Creative
And then break these down more specifically into Roles and Projects.
Then i would use GTD to carry out the "details" of each of these. This actually creates the dreaded synergy, and over time things really start to "come-together".
This way, when you are with the kids, you enjoy them, and when you are at work, you make the best of it, and carve out other time to push the Creative stuff forward. Perhaps one day the Creative will start bring in money, and then you have even more problems!!!!!
GTD has helped me carry out this stuff, not perfectly, but better than before. Its a great system for putting the Ideal into action right now.

ok, enough Philosophizing for now, back to work!!!

Coz



Coz

How do you do it? I basically have two lives running in parallel: the “professional career” I somehow ended up in, which is clerical, cold, and soulless; and the life I wish I had led – one rich in artistic creativity and reward. My main work goal is to minimise stress. Nothing more. My main artistic goal is somehow, someday, to earn my crust through artistic expression. But the years are pushing on.

The mis-fit between these two “lives” has inner seismic consequences. I guess I approach every weekend hoping against hope that I can drag some solid creative satisfaction from the hours available, but of course, this single minded approach means that all the other areas – family, rest, spiritual etc get scant attention, with the inevitable painful consequences. If I persist I hurt them, if I compromise I become filled with resentment. And furthermore at the moment, as I described in my first post, I have two other mundane but important projects to attend to.

I’d kill for a fully integrated vista as you describe it! :cry:

DFE

There's something out there called "The Wheel of Balance" (I can't find it currently :-p). Anyways it helps coach you toward/away from areas of your life that indicate where you're out of balance (e.g. Spiritual, Rest, Nutrition, etc.) Good reference.

However, earlier in your post, you hinted at something that concerned me:
* If you're not living a life that you love, and living it powerfully, choose to either love the life you have, or create a life that you love.
* I have found that if I'm not in a career that I love, STOP. I have buried both my parents; neither one looked back and said, "Wow, wish I would have worked more hours at that office job."
* Make CHOICES, not DECISIONS.

----------------------------------------
Decision:
[Middle English deciden, from Old French decider, from Latin dcdere, to cut off, decide : d-, de- + caedere, to cut; see ka-id- in Indo-European Roots.]

Choice:
pick out, select, or choose from a number of alternatives
----------------------------------------

Look at the root of the word(s). To DECIDE is to eliminiate, or kill off, all other options (i.e. all words ending in -CIDE). To choose is to select freely from the alternatives.

IMHO, set your own path and stick to it.

[Anonymous]

Coz, I think there is an earlier stage in the process than the two you describe. You gotta figure out what you want before you start working on how to get more of it!!

That seems to come real easy for some people. Others, like myself, struggle more with it (particularly the “work” part).

I’ve found some of the techniques in this area recommended by Covey, Robbins et al to be helpful. For me the encouragement to “dream” however seems only to engender dissatisfaction and a loss of focus and with it, loss of drive to get things done (since there is uncertainty over whether it is worth doing as its unclear whether it really matters).

I want to be proactive and in control and make things happen but (as DFE seems to have experienced as well), there’s a distinctly limited amount of “discretionary” time to undertake “change of direction” activities, after taking into account the time required for what I would describe as “core” activities – things like work (it pays the bills and I’m not so sure of the alternatives that I’m ready to starve to pursue them), nurturing family relationships, maintaining & improving my own physical, spiritual and mental health and well-being.

I realise that to a large extent that is a statement about what I value most. And mostly that’s OK, but the fuzzy area for me is “work”.

Every now and then I have this feeling that there must be some more satisfying “work” activity than what I’m doing at present that could pay at least as well, and if it had the benefit of being something that I really love doing as well, then that’s got to be worth pursuing, hasn’t it?

I do believe that if something is important to you, then you’ll make time to do it. Maybe its stating the obvious, but after years of trying to get “alternative” careers off the ground (without really having made any major shift), it might just be the case that a large part of the reason for not having done so is that (in the final analysis) they are not important enough to me.

Nevertheless, it is still quite tough to look at yourself and admit that what you previously thought was “true north” turns out to be another detour. And yet the feeling persists, that if I’ve been this dissatisfied for so long over my original career path, then surely it must be right to change – but to what, and how? Is it a matter of “keep searching” How long, oh Lord, how long … ?

I do not find GTD hugely helpful here. The process seems to me to assume that when “stuff” turns up, the evaluation of whether or not its worthwhile to do any of it has already been done. Or is my implementation at fault - should that evaluation be done as part of the processing of the in-box?

Maybe I need a project and associated next actions on “Clarify my ultimate purpose/vision/mission for my career”?

It seems to me that there is little doubt that sometimes, the “dream big” approaches do work. There are plenty of people out there who have achieved what seemingly was “impossible”, and they did not do it by using the SMART goals approach.

But there are also plenty of folks who have a deep sense of fulfilment despite not fretting over these issues.

So how do I work out for myself the way to go? I think it would be helpful to find out what other posters have found to be most useful to them in clarifying their own vision, values etc. particularly as regards choice of career.

I suspect that in part, its doing things like this – reflecting on what’s worked, what hasn’t, etc, that is what is needed. Of course part of me wants to read more books about this, but I’m a bit wary of getting into the literature about “discovering your life purpose” in case it’s a cue for another detour. As you said Coz, that sounds like an avoidance strategy.

But tell me your strategies anyway in case I can make them work for me. Thanks.

[Rainer Burmeister]

Look at the root of the word(s). To DECIDE is to eliminiate, or kill off, all other options (i.e. all words ending in -CIDE). To choose is to select freely from the alternatives.

IMHO, set your own path and stick to it.

Besides deciding and choosing there is at least a third possibility to find your path:

Some people call it "incubating" and "waiting for input from your internal sources". Other people call it "action through non-action". Or you might as well call it "to courageously and patiently wait until the mud in the water of your mind has settled".

Sometimes it is hard to instinctively or intuitively realize or notice what is the appropriate behaviour for the situation your in: to decide, to choose, to wait or to engage. Often it is our character that makes us do what we do. And that's where the individual attitude comes into play.

For me a person's character is the (often unconscious) way the person manages the access to and expression of her/his inner energy sources (the temperament). E.g. when you get into a difficult situation with several obstacles while you are managing a project at work you could use the amount of physical and mental energy that you have to either sit down and elaborate a plan for decision making, or choose one of the options that you have (e.g. set up a meeting) , or file that problem into your tickler file (let it rest and wait for an idea), or attack the obstacles full of enthusiasm.

See what I mean? Often our characters and attitudes lead us along the risky ways. That seems to be the reason why there are people who succeed without any goal setting and others fail although they have an elaborated set of missions, purposes and goals.

"Is Goal Setting Bad for You?", well, I guess that's the wrong question.
Make that: "Is Goal Setting Helpful and Useful for You (Being the person you are in the situation you are in)?".

Rainer

[Siva]

I don't thing goal setting is bad - however it is something that is done at 50,000 ft altitude. At this height it is easy to see the direction one is going, and set up milestones/goals to help oneself. However if one it at this height all the time, then it will be equivalent to day dreaming. This height belongs to goal setting.

However, goal achieving is done at street level. At this height one can't see beyond one street, one doesn't know if there are any traffic jams in the vicinity. The skills required at this level are quite different from that at 50000 feet.

In my opinion, one can do the goal setting at the 50000 ft level, and then one needs to come up with a strategy for the street level execution. It is not easy to do this translation (50000 ft objectives to street-smart tactics).

So do the goal-setting/reviewing once a month. Day-dreaming (goal-setting) at stree level may result in one being runover!

Siva

[Anonymous]

What I do today is a combination of:
* GTD
* Tasks (I _heavily_ use these in Outlook/Palm)

I use a tool DAILY called Bonsai Outliner by Natara Software (Palm OS).
Dave

Dave

I would be really keen to hear the practical linking of these three tools - I've been struggling with categories. Maybe you can let me into the secrets of your workflow!!

Regards, Fiona

[andmor]

[quote="Siva"]I don't thing goal setting is bad - however it is something that is done at 50,000 ft altitude. At this height it is easy to see the direction one is going, and set up milestones/goals to help oneself. However if one it at this height all the time, then it will be equivalent to day dreaming. This height belongs to goal setting.

If I remember correctly, DA uses the n0,000 ft levels to relate to time horizons - goal setting is an activity at every mindset level above Runway.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

I have had a fantastic career writing software, never having set a goal for it. I fell into it because I absolutely loved it and just wanted to do it more and more. I had no idea where to look for work, but a professor invited me to join a company before I graduated, then every company after that asked me to join rather than me asking them, and they've been great jobs that I enjoyed for the most part.

I did make a goal of marrying my husband. He was on the fence for quite a few years, so I just went ahead and remodeled my home to fit him and subtly changed my lifestyle to accomodate children, without nagging him unduly about his spot on the fence. Eventually his stepfather opened his planner and told him to pick a wedding date, and he did.

I used to read "Think and Grow Rich," and I tried to set goals the way Hill advised. Nothing happened from that. I can't even remember the goals. I don't know why I liked that approach so much.

I have a page in my binder after the someday/maybe list called "things I used to want to do." On it are several huge goals (start a school, open a bookstore). However they had no immediacy so they came to naught. In doing the mundane next actions (or some of them at least), I've started to think long term in a more realistic way. I recently reread that page carefully (wondering why I wrote it) and noticed a few current "goals" written at the bottom and a few "stumbling blocks," and I realized I had since removed the stumbling blocks and achieved some of the goals. The goals were to feel better and have more energy, and I accomplished that by joining a health club and adding regular exercise to my weekly routine. I think maybe the goal-setting exercise came from another how-to book, but I used GTD methods to achieve the results, simply writing things down and doing them.

Cris

[furashgf]

Wow - someone achived something without setting a clear plan, organizing it, and working towards it!
Just kidding - but still, this goes back to the point I made before. For the big picture things, I think it's better to be moving and be flexible.

[Anonymous]

Zootski, I love this thread.



One of the best threads for a very long time. I am now procrastinating because this thread really inspired me. Such is life. One quote:

"I suspect that single minded people do not have the capacity to regret the lack of balance in their lives – that’s their mental make-up, they feel happy, and do not feel the pull from other areas they are ignoring."

Very insightful - it's easy to get hung up on this, as it is very unusual for people to succeed at their 'passion' or whatever you want to call it. Or more accurately, it's very unusual for someone to become 'world class' at that thing. So all these books focus on unusual people like Michael Jordan, and yes, it turns out the guy was VERY VERY focused (and phenomenally talented) and some parts of his life suffered because of it, despite his very real successes.

I started a small firm during the dotcom boom - I spoke to an older, perhaps jaded venture capitalist and he warned me he couldn't count how many people he had known over the years who had spent years of the most productive healthy parts of their lives determined to be successful entrepreneurs and failing. Of course, only a few can really succeed, and it's up to the individual to decide how far to take it.

For a few years I was working as a consultant to a local power utility. I noticed that a lot of the people doing some of the most boring jobs were in fact VERY INTERESTING PEOPLE. Why? Because they have a life. The CAD manager who is in fact an artist in her spare time and uses every minute of her holiday to pursue her art. The actor who has given up (we are all over 40) on becoming 'successful' and famous, and is spending his free time acting in local productions. I saw him and it was a moving experience - many 'not vey successful' artists of all stripes have a lot to say.

Seems to me that some of the most interesting people actually gravitate to some rather mundane jobs - and save their energy for the other part of their lives.

Zootski

[Anonymous]

Great thread you all! I have really been enjoying following this thread! You have come up with some great problem solutions!

Bridgette

[pd_workman]

Every now and then I have this feeling that there must be some more satisfying “work” activity than what I’m doing at present that could pay at least as well, and if it had the benefit of being something that I really love doing as well, then that’s got to be worth pursuing, hasn’t it?

I do believe that if something is important to you, then you’ll make time to do it. Maybe its stating the obvious, but after years of trying to get “alternative” careers off the ground (without really having made any major shift), it might just be the case that a large part of the reason for not having done so is that (in the final analysis) they are not important enough to me.

Nevertheless, it is still quite tough to look at yourself and admit that what you previously thought was “true north” turns out to be another detour. And yet the feeling persists, that if I’ve been this dissatisfied for so long over my original career path, then surely it must be right to change – but to what, and how? Is it a matter of “keep searching” How long, oh Lord, how long … ?

So how do I work out for myself the way to go? I think it would be helpful to find out what other posters have found to be most useful to them in clarifying their own vision, values etc. particularly as regards choice of career.

Let's focus on this: "after years of trying to get “alternative” careers off the ground (without really having made any major shift), it might just be the case that a large part of the reason for not having done so is that (in the final analysis) they are not important enough to me."

Why don't you work on the assumption that the reason you have not made any progress in a career shift is that it is not important to you? Perhaps you are coming to the realization that after years of being dissatisfied with your career choice, that it is not really the career that you are dissatisfied with. I recently went through a period of about four years of being really dissatisfied with my job. Really wanting out, wanting to do something else. There was a whole process that had led to this. I originally was in a job that I really loved. Loved the work, had a great boss, etc. He was killed in a car accident. I stayed on even though I was not quite as happy with him gone, but still enjoyed the job reasonably. After a few more years, I was laid off. Big shock. A transition period, and then I started working for the boss I work for now. Really liked it. Then baby came along, and because of our family situation and the work situation, I was asked to come back to work part time after two weeks, and full time after two months. I really resented it, and that resentment festered for four years while I looked for a "safe" way out - a way to quit the job without being left in the lurch, and to find something else that still gave me all of the benefits (financial and otherwise) I was accustomed to.

We went through a lot of different scenarios, looking at other jobs, other situations, other cities, etc. etc. during that four years, I fell into a deep depression with the stress, SAD, and a prescription I was on. I realized that none of these other scenarios were working, they were just causing more stress, resentment, and dissatisfaction. So I took a real good look at my job. I was finally able to separate my resentment over having to go back to work so quickly from the rest of the job. And I found that I still really liked my boss, still enjoyed the work, was happy with the pay and benefits, and that the job left me with lots of time and flexibility for family, hobbies, etc. So I was finally able to put all of the other "maybes" and "what ifs" aside, focus on getting healthy and loving my work again, and enjoying all of the benefits that I had been ignoring.

It was a huge relief for me to be able to really come to the understanding that I did not need to ladder climb, look for something more "fulfilling" or with more "freedom", no matter what the rest of the workforce thought. I get what I need to out of work, and I am free to focus on my family, hobbies, interests, and other goals outside of the 9-5 grind.

Brainstorm the things you like about your job. Really think about the benefits of staying or going. If you had to leave all of the benefits of this job, for some elusive dream, would it be worth it? Or do you want all of the benefits of this job *and* your dream - which of course is not going to happen. Think realistically about the work and the negatives you would still have to face if you reached that dream.

Yes, you may find out that you have been reaching for something you really didn't want, that that is why you didn't take it. But isn't it better to figure that out now than in thirty years? Isn't it better to realize that you are satisfied with your job and put your energy into other areas of your life?

Pam

[Anonymous]

We seem to have sent out a ripple in the Web with this thread – several of the weekly bulletins I have received over the last week have dealt with the topic of goal-setting being bad for you.

The best one is:

http://65.54.174.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=35b9c53691972784c1d3aeb73369d9 33&lat=1079447118&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2frs6%2en et%2ftn%2ejsp%3ft%3d8uhwkzn6%2ecorkwyn6%2epmtemwn6 %2eph4alwn6%2e4127%26p%3dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww%2e massageyourmind%2ecom

I have to say, Maya has identified an under-lying feeling I had also. I would like to feel immersed in poetry, or well-read, or pleased with myself, or relaxed.

Many of the goal-setting champions urge us to develop a bias towards action, to take massive action, and do measurable amounts of action.

But what I am after is a state of mind. The state of mind I am after is NOT the knowledge that, hey, look at me, I can set goals and get stuff done. Rather, I want to be in a place where I feel satisfaction compared to a current dissatisfaction.

A cousin of Queen Elizabeth II recently walked to the South Pole. She spoke in enraptured tones abut the sense of empowerment and capability that the accomplishment gave her.

I can fully appreciate this, and I can sense in her how she is ready to take on the next big challenge.

But I believe that what I am after is a different thing – a better balance between the things I have to do in life, and the things I want to do.

DFE

[Anonymous]

Sorry, wrong link

http://www.massageyourmind.com/_wsn/page2.html


DFE

[Cikub]

I hate to interrupt this thread, but I just printed out and read all 65 pages! It has been facinating and tremendously insightful thanks to the thoughfulness and excellent writing skills of the contributors. This thread should be enshrined somewhere for permanent access by those that are stressed, confused, and frustrated about the progress (or perceived lack of progress) in their lives.

The greatest thing I have come away with is a sense of relief. I feel like I just joined a group that rose on an elevated platform and from that height, observed our "ant" selves running around below and seen how things really are--what's "normal" and the importance of being satisfied with realistic progress in life.

C

[martha]

It has helped me focus on what I should be doing on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis. I set goals in the following categories:

1. Accounting/Bookkeeping

2. Administration

3. Legal

4. Marketing

5. Office/Business Management

6. Producing Goods & Services

These categories correspond to the six major functions of a business. I have my quarterly goals (currently, for Q1 2004) framed and they're sitting right below my computer monitor.

Hope this helps!

[Rainer Burmeister]

But I believe that what I am after is a different thing – a better balance between the things I have to do in life, and the things I want to do.
DFE

Though I would not recommend to pick or choose anything, there are situations where I want or must choose, make my choice. There are several enemies of choice that can keep one from making the right choice or any choice at all (as far as I can remember I got this list of enemies of choice from Mark Ivar Myhre):

1. Inertia. This occurs either when you are moving and can't stop, or you're stopped and you can't get started again.
2. Projection. This is where you pretend that everybody in your life is somebody else. Usually, every man is 'father' and every woman is 'mother'.
3. Identification. This is where you identify yourself as being someone other than the grown-up you really are. Usually it is identifying yourself as being a child.
4. Boredom. This is a state of progressed inertia, when you are bored with everyone and everything; when you really don't want to think or feel anything.
5. Jealousy that seeks revenge.
6. Worry, guilt, depression (three forms of anger).
7. Self-pity. This is progressed everything. All the enemies of choice eventually end up here.

Regards
Rainer

[Anonymous]

It has helped me focus on what I should be doing on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis. I set goals in the following categories:

1. Accounting/Bookkeeping

2. Administration

3. Legal

4. Marketing

5. Office/Business Management

6. Producing Goods & Services

These categories correspond to the six major functions of a business. I have my quarterly goals (currently, for Q1 2004) framed and they're sitting right below my computer monitor.

Hope this helps!


With the possible exceptions of non-profits and the generally confused, The ONLY function of a business is to maximize the net, after-tax profits of the owners/shareholders....and to do so with integrity, IOW playing the game "straight-up" and without lying, cheating, stealing, etc. Everything else is a necessary evil/means to support that end.

Therefore, your primary/first/main goal should be to generate at least X dollars this quater net, after-tax profits. All the rest are sub/means/supporting goals.

Craig

[andmor]

Craig:

I don't agree with your statement. Can you please provide an authority for it?

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Rainer

Thank you, thank you. I thought it was just me! I can readily identify with 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7 – how on Earth do these get entwined with work decisions? But they do.

I often get to the end of a day appalled at how little I got done, but also appalled at the state of mind I find myself in.

How could such mundane stuff as my work tie me up into these emotional strait jackets?

I think it is very hard to set our humanity aside for eight hours a day, and silence all our hopes and little paranoias and expectations just to get paper moved. In my case, I believe that as the minutes and hours pass by, a voice inside is shouting louder and louder, “there MUST be more to my life than this!”

In my first post on this thread, I said that goal setting is unnatural because it disturbs our deep down equilibrium. I think work is extremely unnatural in the same way.

I think a day is a like a mini life, and sleep is like a mini death. As the day draws to a close and darkness falls, I become deeply aware of all of the things in life I missed out on that day.

On a different point, your very illuminating list reminded me of another list I came across, which is often useful for dismantling unpleasant states of mind:

“The recent emphasis on Cognitive Therapy has lead to several books cataloging an assortment of toxic ideas or beliefs. For example, Freeman and DeWolf (1992) say the 10 dumbest mistakes are
(1) assuming a catastrophe is about to happen,
(2) thinking we know what other people are thinking (or they should know what we think),
(3) assuming responsibility for other people's troubles or bad moods,
(4) believing too many good things about ourself and our future,
(5) believing too many bad things about ourself and our future,
(6) insisting on being perfect,
(7) competing or comparing with everyone and losing,
(8) worrying about events that never happen,
(9) being abused by our own excessive "shoulds," and
(10) finding the negative aspect of everything good.”


DFE

[Anonymous]

This thread is a good one to spend time reading and pondering on. DF, I too am at the forty-something mark and I think that contributes to my sense of "am I doing what I was put on this planet to do?".

Reading the posts made me think of a book though. Its called "The Answer to How is Yes". The author, Peter Block, points out the self-help scam very concisely and makes the assertion that when our response to life is "Yes" we will figure out the "how?". If our response is "No", we will find endless means of diversion - including self help books!

I am very prone to looking for more information whenever I face a challenge - books, CD's, audiotapes, etc., but Blocks book made me think that I need to think for myself more. Seems a contradiction considering the great value I've gained from this forum string, but I think part of the problem is that we dont often enough think - I mean really think.
I get in the car and immediately turn on the radio or the audiotape. Instead of thinking for myself I listen to someone else think. I should realize that I have this marvelous rolling cocoon in which I can be completely unharrassed for the next 30 minute commute. There are hundreds of things I could think on...

[Anonymous]

DM

Very interesting - I like what Blok is saying.

I have noticed another sort of “No” in my own behaviour. In order to be a responsible grown up parent, I deliberately categorised all of my interests as valueless distractions to be avoided until I got all the important stuff done. I became continually preoccupied with how to get more done in work. (This was not a complete waste of time – my first employer set me a really bad example of how to behave in the business world: he continually tried to find ways to avoid doing work for customers, to blame them wherever possible, and to bill them as much as possible – I had a lot of unlearning to do).

I did this denial for six years. But the simple act of continually stomping on the head of my interests was actually a slow form of suicide. I felt empty all the time. I had cut off my mental vitamin supply. Now I know I have to say “Yes” to my “Self” in order to get happy again.

I know that’s not exactly what Blok is saying. However, I think I had immersed myself in self-help books hoping that they would give me a way to be as happy as I was before I started denying all my own interests ... without actually doing the things that made me happy.

I guess it takes a type of courage to take life full on, to stand up to the corporate planet and be oneself – to be able to believe that I have as much a right as anyone else to be happy, and that there is a time and a place for both work and play.

It ties in with the best Zen book I ever read: Zen Soup by Laurence G. Boldt, which really captures that “living life full-on” feeling.

Regarding thinking for oneself, I find it a real treat to sit down with my list of things to do, and brainstorm some of them. The insights, shortcuts, etc that this can produce are extremely rewarding. The experience can be like taking a new turn on a forest walk that leads to new pleasures.

One of the themes that comes up from time to time in self help books (Tracy and Covey to name but two) is the notion that we might be doing something every day that we think is right but which in fact is a wrong course of action. We have done it for so long that we don’t even think of questioning it.

When I have time to think, I try to think that way, and question some of the fundamental ideas I have about work and personal life. I don't mean that I reinvent myself every weekend, and I don’t obsess about it, but it does yield the occasional light bulb.

For example, why do I retain about three hundred books, whereas others seem to be able to let go a finished book as easily as an empty coke can? I know a lot of people are like me, and regard a book as a personal friend. But are we all inflicted with some mild disorder? Are we edging into obsessive/compulsive territory?

Even asking myself that question is painful, but I know my wife is glad I did. I think her version of normality is tidier than mine. Though I still think the outcome is going to be like that guy who cut off his arm for the greater benefit of getting out from under that boulder …

DFE

[Anonymous]

Craig:

I don't agree with your statement. Can you please provide an authority for it?

Andrew

Hello Andrew,

I want to thank you for your participation on the board. In working to implement and refine GTD, I have learned and benefited a great deal from your posts.

While I can think of a couple exceptions/special cases related to directly involved owners/investors , I'm curious, in what way or what part of the statement don't you agree with?

Craig

[Rainer Burmeister]

... I still think the outcome is going to be like that guy who cut off his arm for the greater benefit of getting out from under that boulder …

DFE
DFE,

please use a lever (your creativity :wink: ).

Rainer

[Rainer Burmeister]

Its called "The Answer to How is Yes". The author, Peter Block, points out the self-help scam very concisely and makes the assertion that when our response to life is "Yes" we will figure out the "how?". If our response is "No", we will find endless means of diversion - including self help books!


DM and DFE,

this reminds me of a German book about leadership and organization in the German public sector that I read several years ago. One of the statements in the book (addressed to the wanna-be leader) was "He who demands job performance must give meaning first!".

This statement has been resting in my mind for a long time and the other day I came up with the project to use this statement to develop a way for better self-motivation. I am thinking about setting up a routine for myself that might go like this:

1. Appreciation
Appreciate your past, your achievements. Ask yourself: What do your results (achievements, outcomes, successes) mean to you? What do they mean to other persons? What can you learn from your results?
2. Motivation
What are the present meaning and the future meaning of your results? Connect these to positive feelings that motivate you to do new work. Imaging future results. Set a short-term goal. Update your project list and your next actions list.
3. Preparation
Set the stage for your new project, clean your desk, your computer hard drive, de-clutter your office and your home. Learn about your new project, collect information. Try to build up a positive inner tension to get started.
4. Production (Action)
Grasp the opportunity to start a new project, the project you have prepared for. Relax the inner tension by doing the work. Let your creativity flow. Complete your task.

This outline is still very bumpy but I feel that this could be a way for me to improve my self-motivation.

What do you think?

Rainer

[dhmlco]

So, if the great Brian Tracy did NOT do all the usual goals-setting stuff - review goals daily, get excited, visualise, mentally rehearse, prioritise ruthlessly, ensure that they conform to the SMART format etc, - and yet still managed to achieve and exceed his goal, then it kinda discredits the whole goal-setter routine doesn’t it?
DFE

I participate in a site on digital photography, and about once a week they'll be some thread that states, "well, Ansel Adams didn't...."

The implication being that just because he did or didn't, then they should or shouldn't.

Unfortunately, and what most fail to realize, is that THEY are not Ansel Adams. Some people may be naturals in any given field -- but most are not. Those people may in fact succeed, but (discounting luck) they're going to need the skills, tools, and training to do so.

Besides, do you honestly think that Brian Tracy had NO goals? Didn't work towards having his books and tapes in front of a million people? Didn't visualize the advantages his seminars might have, and didn't work to create them?

Brian may not have done the manifestation clap-trap, but I will guarantee you he had goals, and worked towards them. He may be a "natural", who didn't need those supporting skills -- but are you?

[andmor]

Craig: While I can think of a couple exceptions/special cases related to directly involved owners/investors , I'm curious, in what way or what part of the statement don't you agree with?

Craig: I wrote a response but it got pretty much OT for GtD, so I thought I would spare the other folks here. If you would click on my profile and leave a message for me with your email adrdress, I'll send you my response.

Thank you for your kind words.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

dhmlco,

Good point.

I suspect that a lot of life-coaching is basically an attempt to enable us to do what Ansel Adams, Michael Jordan, Brain Tracy etc do naturally and without self-analysis.

If it is NOT natural for us lesser mortals, then the next best thing is to have a plan of action to follow which will lead to the same ends.

To do this, someone had to model, or map, the behavioural patterns of successful people.

There is a famous phrase within NLP which goes “the map is not the territory”. We don’t perceive the total picture of life; instead, we all have our own way of mapping life into our heads to help us navigate our way through situations.

Failures have a bad map which details rocky gorges, dead ends, and circuitous routes, and is dark.

The successful have a good map is bright and identifies peaks and destinations.

The Brian Tracy way of doing things is simply a different way of looking at life. The ingredients are the same for most of us: a human body, a human voice, the same number of minutes in a day, the same commercial hunting grounds … but if we can somehow do it in the manner and with the attitude that he did it, it should go better for us.

But I wonder about two fundamental questions:

First, how good a map-maker is he? Are there some vital ingredients missing? Can you REALLY learn optimism?

Second, is it a good thing to try to fit yourself around someone else’s map? Elton John had perfect eyesight as a kid, but he wore glasses to look like his music idol, (Buddy Holly I think). The result? His eyesight went to hell, and then he HAD to wear glasses.

Psychologists study for years, and gradually become experts in what goes on below the surface. Are the Tracy’s of the world sufficiently skilled to enter this territory? Is it enough to pick out a few surface habits and package them as a successful map/personality?

I would love to know if any research has been done on the dangers of adopting the personality of another.

DFE

[Anonymous]

Rainer

I look at your outline and I go glossy - I just dont get that kind of stuff. I know I would never be apt to look at it enough or find it useful enough to use consistently.

It reminds me of mission statements - I write lovely ones and then I go back to work and forget about it. Its probably just me. I guess if you really want to change you have to keep a picture of that change in front of you (successful outcome). Maybe thats why I'm not running the corporation...?

I tend to agree with David Allen about "motivation". He says its about commitment - not motivation. If you wait till you're motivated you wont be. If you're committed to do it regardless of how you feel (motivated or not) you're on to something.

What the heck do I know?

Mark

[Rainer Burmeister]

Mark,

please let me explain. I am working at a large public hospital in Germany (4500 employees). Several months ago our employer (the government) made several major changes regarding the legal regulations and the organisation of this hospital. A supervisory board is to be installed but there is no one in sight yet. The head of the managing board has been dismissed and there is no new head in sight. The fact is: the employer has forced the hospital into a new direction without defining any goals or “successful outcome”. I doubt that any of us 4500 persons knows where we are heading.

The only logical explanation is that the number of employees will be reduced with the remaining personnel having to do more work for the same payment. Maybe several departments will be shut down (downsizing). Fortunately our trade-union has prevented a major disaster (layoffs). A lot of my colleagues are either confused, frustrated, unmotivated, angry or depressed.

You don’t need any motivation if you are committed to do what you want to do or ought to do. And you don’t need any kind of “being organized” when you are committed and successful. But what if you are to do tasks that you are not committed to do and you are not getting paid for?

Compared to many other colleagues I am in a rather good and secure position but I am feeling a slightly rising demand for more job performance already. This brings me back to the statement "He who demands job performance must give meaning first!" and to my pondering about the meaning of my work and motivation.

Hope the reasons for my outline are more clear now.

Rainer

[Anonymous]

I hope I didnt offend.

Whatever works.

Mark

[Rainer Burmeister]

DM wrote:
I hope I didnt offend. No, you didn't offend. Forget it. :D


But let's get back to goal setting!

Here's a question that I'm not sure about how to answer: In his latest newsletter (the one with the karate belt analogy for GTD) David Allen wrote:

An objective must be 50% believable to motivate action.

You must imagine yourself in a desired scenario to be motivated to create it. So it must be real and believable enough that you can give yourself permission to hold that picture. If you don’t really know what it is or think it’s possible, in your gut, you’ll actually undermine your motivation by creating “I can’t” energy. Turn resistance into attraction by chunking a goal into a clear and doable next potential win that you can already at least taste. Always play a game you know you have the ability to win.

Now , how do you know that an objective or goal is a real and believable one for you?

For me short-term goals are fine, goals for this or next week (next actions for the projects at the 10,000 feet level). But if I haven't turned a longer-term objective or goal into a project (30,000 to 40,000 feet) with several sub-projects and at least one next action to start , well, then things are getting rather vague. That's why I prefer having values and principles when it comes to make a decision regarding an important issue on the 40,000 to 50,000 feet levels. Often I just grap the opportunity for improvement without any goals but based on my values and the principles I stick to.

Rainer

[Mardo]

One of the things that helped me figure out how I could improve the quality of my life was when I was at Canyon Ranch and one of the coaches said close your eyes and visualize what a good day would be. it wasn't a good day in another job or career or different friends, family or interests. It was about how the day would flow, how I would feel while I was waking up, easing into the day, exercising, "being in the zone" while I worked productively, leaving work, reading a book by the fire. I find that its a useful exercise, because otherwise the you can get so overwhelmed by miniuta that the overall picture ie the quality of your life can be secondary. Some days of course are the exact opposite but if you know what you want it to be its easier to self correct. I am self employed so there is more of an element of control.

I also think its a lot easier to have energy and optimism in the spring.
I have mentioned before that a book I really like is the Power of Full engagement by Jim Loehr and Tony Schwartz. There premise is that managing energy not time is the key to high performance. Relying upon discipline doesnt work but building a small number of rituals into your weekly life can make a huge difference in the energy you bring to all of your life. its based on their work with athletes. I am trying to institute a few rituals, time for exercise, healthy eating and an afternoon cup of tea.

[Rainer Burmeister]

http://www.massageyourmind.com/_wsn/page2.html

At that page Maya Talisman Frost wrote that you should not have goals but that you should have intentions.


DFE,

do you know why "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" ?
It's because having good intensions is an efficient way for us to keep us away from "God" (or whatever you want to call it/her/him).

Rainer

[Rainer Burmeister]

I have mentioned before that a book I really like is the Power of Full engagement by Jim Loehr and Tony Schwartz. There premise is that managing energy not time is the key to high performance. Relying upon discipline doesnt work but building a small number of rituals into your weekly life can make a huge difference in the energy you bring to all of your life. its based on their work with athletes. I am trying to institute a few rituals, time for exercise, healthy eating and an afternoon cup of tea.

Mardo,

would you please tell me more about this "manage your energy and not your time" method?

Rainer

[Busydave]

I spent the weekend reading a backlog of downloads I printed out over the last year.

Some dealt with the theme “fear of success”. The first thing they said we need to get right if we want to avoid fear of success is our self esteem.

The remedy for low self esteem always begins with the advice that we should accept and like ourselves as we are, unconditionally. THEN we can select whatever upgrades or enhancements appeal to us and go get them. The reason for our projects should NEVER be to make us feel better about ourselves. Rather, they should be sensible things to do: losing weight makes you healthier so you will live longer and also enjoy the physical part of your life more; achieving a degree or other qualification will make you more money; getting a promotion gives you more authority over your daily work life and gets you more money etc. But getting a “fix” of success is the wrong way.

(Did you ever see a child climbing onto her father’s knee and snuggling into him with unconditional joy? He’s over-weight, doesn’t have a great job, but that means nothing to her. For him, losing weight and getting a promotion would mean a better future for them all. But it would be a tragedy if the child at some point said “I love you more now daddy because you earn more money”.)

Bottom line, we should just love ourselves as we are, and then go for the add-ons that enhance the quality of our lives.

The reason I mention this is because of the way Cosmo/Dr. Ellis pointed out that the goal-setter gurus spear-head their attack by making us feel bad about ourselves. You might have been getting along quite well with yourself, but then they start to list things: you could lose weight; what about that 60 year old who runs a marathon a month?; you could be earning three times your current salary … and we can tell you just how to do it.

I see a perfect vicious circle here: step one, you attack the victim’s self esteem by pointing out how great their life could be, but isn’t; step two, you launch them on a process which they believe is a self-improvement process, but because of their low self esteem, they will have “fear of success” (I’m not worthy of success!”) - they will sabotage the process they are on – and will come back to purchase more promises and reassurance.

Quite a set up!

Dave

[Rainer Burmeister]

I see a perfect vicious circle here: step one, you attack the victim’s self esteem by pointing out how great their life could be, but isn’t; step two, you launch them on a process which they believe is a self-improvement process, but because of their low self esteem, they will have “fear of success” (I’m not worthy of success!”) - they will sabotage the process they are on – and will come back to purchase more promises and reassurance.
Affirmative!

Think "I am a value!" instead of "I have a value!"

Having good intensions and nothing more than good intensions will only get you into more trouble. If someone has experienced and knows that he/she is a value then there will come the day when she/he will be able to say "You are a value" to someone else.

Rainer

[andmor]

[quote="Busydave"]
>Bottom line, we should just love ourselves as we are

Yes, that's the first half of "The Golden Rule".

>and then go for the add-ons that enhance the quality of our lives.

I would say better that we should have the requisite humility to seek opportunities for personal improvement.

>I see a perfect vicious circle here: step one, you attack the victim’s self esteem by pointing out how great their life could be, but isn’t; step two, you launch them on a process which they believe is a self-improvement process, but because of their low self esteem, they will have “fear of success” (I’m not worthy of success!”) - they will sabotage the process they are on – and will come back to purchase more promises and reassurance.

Nobody forces you to buy. This kind of sales approach is directed towards people looking for a quick-fix, or for someone to hand them what they (think they) want. But, in fairness, most of the gurus I have read try to make you believe that you already have the power/ability to make the changes, provided that you realize that change must come from within. If that makes somebody feel bad because they aren't prepared to make the changes that they say they want, it's not really the writer's fault.

I would like to think that most of us accept the written "noise" and hype for what it is, and are more interested in those little pieces of thinking and method that might strike a chord and help us to sort out our own ideas.

Andrew

[CosmoGTD]

Believe me, this is the actual self-conscious sales process with many of these folks!

1) Find your customers PAIN
2) Stir up their PAIN and make it worse, and make them really FEEL it.
3) Heal their pain with your products and services.




The reason I mention this is because of the way Cosmo/Dr. Ellis pointed out that the goal-setter gurus spear-head their attack by making us feel bad about ourselves. You might have been getting along quite well with yourself, but then they start to list things: you could lose weight; what about that 60 year old who runs a marathon a month?; you could be earning three times your current salary … and we can tell you just how to do it.

I see a perfect vicious circle here: step one, you attack the victim’s self esteem by pointing out how great their life could be, but isn’t; step two, you launch them on a process which they believe is a self-improvement process, but because of their low self esteem, they will have “fear of success” (I’m not worthy of success!”) - they will sabotage the process they are on – and will come back to purchase more promises and reassurance.

Quite a set up!

Dave

[Busydave]

Andrew

To be honest, I think I now read a lot of stuff, as you say, to look for any new insights that might be lurking there. When some point I have glossed over many times is said in a different way, it can strike home for the first time.

Most of the books and websites tend to describe, often very accurately, how our lives would be if we were fully organised, motivated, focused etc. This vision can fire us up with hope. But then we return to the reality of our desk, empty-handed, and the hope fades.

There are only a few actual techniques for getting things done. It’s quite rare to come across a new technique. Jim Rohn makes the point that success is just a matter of applying a few fundamentals consistently. He even says we should be extremely wary of anyone purporting to have a new technique.

I have to admit that I was a sucker for the “quick fix” sales pitch a few years ago. Fortunately I did not spend very much money on it – not many self help seminars here in Ireland! I will defend myself by saying that I was not searching for a quick fix (I believed I was genetically predisposed to be disorganised and unfocussed, and beyond help) … but when I came across Mr Robbins I believed that I had been shown a way out. The fact that it appeared to be quick as well lured me in at high speed.

After a few years, it became obvious that I could drop the word “quick”.

Ironically though, I was just this morning re-reading some passages that I underlined in “Awaken the Giant Within” several years ago, and I found that they are all solid and workable ideas. The only problem is, they are embedded in a style of delivery that leads the unwary (me) to believe that it all happens quickly.

I can now read him calmly, and follow his line or argument, which is basically tarnished old nuggets of common sense polished up so that their original value shows.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Coz

Hopefully the process has a limited life cycle (although there are always more people coming along behind).

As I said above, it took me several years to realise there was no quick fix. And even then, it was a reluctant admission to myself – “how come all this time has gone by and I am still not living my dreams? What happened to ‘quick’?”

I remember about three days after I started reading Awaken the Giant Within, I played a basketball game. I was so fired up beforehand that I really felt there was electricity flying through my arms and legs.

I played my usual average game – and went home furious with disappointment and frustration. (The little matter of focussed hard work and extra diligent training had slipped my attention).

Later, I even ran into what you described above:



“One point i forgot to make, that others have mentioned, is that all of the Goal-Setting stuff can actually make people do WORSE!
My view on this, is that it can become an AVOIDANCE strategy.
Instead of Just Doing It, like many successful people do, some people who are AFRAID of failing, rejection, etc, instead focus on Goal-Setting, and Wishful Thinking, and they fall behind.
I have heard many people say that they got better results BEFORE they knew any of this Goal-Setting stuff!!!
In my view, this is because all of the Goal-Setting is just a way to AVOID doing the hard work, and risking failure and rejection.”


I noticed that in a recent article Robbins does not seem to be leading with the magic-lamp approach any more – he seems to be extolling the power of steely hard work from the start. At least he’s getting more realistic.

Dave

[Busydave]

Once again, got logged out before I posted the above.

Does the site automatically log us out after a certain number of minutes?

Dave

[Rainer Burmeister]

Does the site automatically log us out after a certain number of minutes?

Yes, it does. In the FAQ section there is written:

"Why do I get logged off automatically?
If you do not check the Log me in automatically box when you login the
board will only keep you logged in for a preset time. This prevents
misuse of your account by anyone else. To stay logged in check the box
during login, this is not recommended if you access the board from a
shared computer, e.g. library, internet cafe, university cluster, etc."

But it doesn't tell us how long the "preset time" lasts.

Rainer

[Busydave]

Thanks Rainer,

Someday, I'll try to time it!

Dave

[CosmoGTD]

Well, i don't know about that.
Robbins is now moving into "wellness" marketing, and is selling stuff like the "Qlink", which is supposed to miraculously heal your bioenergy fields, and protect you from EMF's! http://www.clarus.com/
http://www.clarus.com/endorsements.html
Its a total, utter big-money scamola, in my not so humble opinion. Its more "wishful thinking".

Wishful thinking is big business. Look at the money made by lotteries, and casinos.

Robbins sells many different things to many different people.
In my view, if he wrote a textbook on Unconscious Social Influence, and described what he does, THEN that would be worth studying!
What he teaches about Goals is more harmful than useful, in my opinion. It makes people too stressed out, and hurts performance.
But, that is Step 2. Stir up the customers PAIN.

anyway, don't get me started about Robbins!! :roll:





I noticed that in a recent article Robbins does not seem to be leading with the magic-lamp approach any more – he seems to be extolling the power of steely hard work from the start. At least he’s getting more realistic.

Dave

[Busydave]

Oops! I must have missed that promotion. The latest one we see here is the “Get the Edge” Infomercial.

As for printed matter, apart from Awaken the Giant, the latest thing I read was an article in GQ magazine which is reproduced on the Robbins site. Tony gives the interviewer the “Shoulding all over yourself” treatment, telling him to roll up his sleeves, get stuck in and go for huge results.

I think he’s essentially a good motivator. Like Tom Peters says, he should have stuck to the knitting. It’s a pity when successful guys go cosmic, and their tires lose all contact with the road.

Dave

[Busydave]

Andrew (Andmor),

Did you get my PM? It’s not showing up in my “sent” items box.

Dave

[CosmoGTD]

Robbins has declared he wants to be a Billionaire, so moving into the "new age wellness" business seems to be how he's going to try and do it. Big profits, low margins, in that business.
I am sorta getting off topic, except to make the point that i believe it is very important to carefully analyze the "information" being put out, and to see if it has an ulterior motives embedded in it, or hidden biases. Its pretty hard to find solid, good, unbiased, honest information, in my experience.
Finding valid and helpful "self-help" info is surprisingly difficult!




I think he’s essentially a good motivator. Like Tom Peters says, he should have stuck to the knitting. It’s a pity when successful guys go cosmic, and their tires lose all contact with the road.

Dave

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

What the hell was that about?

Dave

[Scott_L_Lewis]

What the hell was that about?

Dave,

I assume you are referring to the previous posting. It is a bogus message put there by a computer program. The idea is to get the unsuspecting to click on that embedded link.

Remember a while back we were getting complaints of a lot of bogus "members" in the member list whose web sites were porno? Same thing.

[Anonymous]

Scott

I was hoping it wasn’t a programmed posting. From what I can see, on-line gambling is reaching epidemic proportions. It’s going to be as big a concern as binge drinking.

Dave

[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

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[Unregistered]

I have used Franklin-Covey off and on for several years and I'm looking at GTD right now. One of the things that always bugged me about Franklin-Covey was the fact that they pushed bad philosophy along with their organization tools.

If you really want to work out the kind of issues posted here, you'd be much better off reading Aristotle or Aquinas or contemporary authors that explain their thought rather than looking for answers here.

A good starting point would be "Aristotle for Everybody (Everyone?)" by Mortimer Adler.

A more recent book that I have not read but it looks good is "Creating the Good Life" by James O'Toole.

Ralph McInery has some good books on Thomas Aquinas.

Best of Luck!