Does GTD help with Depression or other mental disorders?

[Stephen]

I have read that GTD is making great inroads into helping ADD people have a more meaningful life. GTD is a tool that can give so many people hope.

With all the broken agreements, incompletes, and open loops that are the norm in our fast-paced world, it's no surprise that mental illness is on the rise.

Since Next-Action decision making produces Clarity, Accountability, Productivity, and Empowerment, it seems that this way of life would be an antidote preventing the slide into mental illness.

Do you have a story about how GTD has pulled you, or someone you know, out of the clutches of depression or another form of mental illness?

I know that depression is still "taboo" talk in many circles, especially if it is from personal knowledge.

Can you envision a future where GTD is the drug of choice instead of Paxil, Prozac, or Lexipro?

Stephen

[Unregistered]

Stephen, I would love to read whatever you've seen about GTD helping people with ADD-style thinking. Can you hook me up with those references?

ADD or not, many of us were never taught basic organizational skills. Nor was there anyone to mimic. Growing up, most adults around me had their stuff together and were getting things done, but they were not doing anything much out of the ordinary. I did see that one should file paid bills alphabetically... But I never learned what to do with the creative projects and their necessary gold and dross. Really compounding the problem was that nobody talked about this organizational stuff. It was a bigger secret than sex. Who could you ask a dopey question such as "what do I do with my half-written history of widgets? "

I am not being literal, of course, but I am here to tell ya, that it is extremely depressing and crazy-making and terribly damaging to self-esteem to have incompletes, messes, and what-might-have-beens. The snowball effects are considerable.

By nature, I am about average when it comes to being organized and getting things accomplished. Yet the healing (corny word, but apt) that even I have felt from the little bit of GTD that I have understood and applied cannot be underestimated.

I've known others - so much more gifted, and so talented - who are depressed because they are not meeting their potential and using their gifts. One guy says it's his FAMILY CURSE that he has accomplished nothing, that he has had great ideas and dreams that rot half finished in his attic. It is very heartbreaking to observe. Some of these people take Prozac. Some use numbing techniques (TV, excessive on-line activity) to cope. I try to observe this behavior and use it as a reverse-roll-model. I try to implement more GTD every day.

[Unregistered]

Thanks, Stephen.
Helpful, too.
Jane

[MTMER]

I discovered GTD a number of years ago -- I don't implement it as fully as I could but I'm pretty good at it so far. For all of my pregnancies I have dealt with very severe post-partum depression. Only for the last pregnancy did I have experence w/GTD and I think it made a tremendous difference.

When I could feel the depression start to overtake me like a fog, I cannot tell you how comforting it was to know that I had full confidence in my collection tools and in being able to break projects and actions down. The "next action" on some of my projects were actually "itty-itty-bitty-next-action-wannabees" but that was all that I could handle until I got through the worst of it. Some days my only progress was staying alive another day.

In the past, coming out of a bad depression usually lead to an awful secondary depression from all the debris of not functioning well for some time. This last time around, the secondary depression was not so bad -- I was overwhelemed with what had to be done, but not paralyzed. I knew where I had left off with all my important projects and I knew how to jump in with processing. (I also liberally moved about half of my projects to the trashcan or to "someday/maybe".)

GTD is powerful, but I don't see it directly doing anything for the low-serotonin in my brain or for the dramatic hormone shifts after giving birth. While lack of organization can contribute to depression, I don't think organization all by itself cures it either.

Meg

[Unregistered]

Meg, very interesting. I like how you articulated it. It gives me better understanding of GTD as structure. Jane

[Arduinna]

In the past, coming out of a bad depression usually lead to an awful secondary depression from all the debris of not functioning well for some time. This last time around, the secondary depression was not so bad -- I was overwhelemed with what had to be done, but not paralyzed. I knew where I had left off with all my important projects and I knew how to jump in with processing. (I also liberally moved about half of my projects to the trashcan or to "someday/maybe".)

IMO, this is brilliant, and a terrific affirmative response to the question of whether GTD can help one in depression. I can't find sourcing for it, but I have read that completing tasks releases endorphins, the feel-good chemical ("runner's high," etc.). If this is true, then if a depressed person isn't constitutionally incapable of experiencing that pleasure, getting things done should help. I don't see it altering fundamental neurotransmitter problems and alleviating clinical depression, or offsetting a circumstance-based depression (job loss, death of a loved one), but in working out of general downward spiral, it could at least theoretically be a boon. You feel morose, but commit to your NA and get it done and get a little lift of satisfaction/brain chemicals in the wake of accomplishment; you commit to and finish another NA, with the same result, and feel incrementally better. The demonstrable results justify the sense of pleasure and satisfaction. In this sense, GTD could be seen as a form of behavior modification (action vs. inertia). It may be less useful in AD/HD, simply because the lack of a hard structure in determining the right NAs makes that a morass of possibility, or an ADD sandtrap. All IMO.

Meg, is the concept of "secondary depression" yours?

[CosmoGTD]

Any type of Behavior Therapy can be useful when dealing with a depression.
But along with this, one needs to do a lot of work with ones thoughts, beliefs and perceptions.
And for very serious depression, antidepressants can be very helpful.
So its best if one does all of these, pharmacological, behavioral, and cognitive-emotive.

But for those with Obsessive personality traits, GTD and things like this, really could just make the problem much worse. Some people with this problem go overboard and literally try to order EVERY single tiny Next Action in their existence, and create a type of obsessive, perfectionistic spiral, which ends in dumping the system, and moving on to the NEXT system....

I would stick to proven and tested Cognitive-Behavioral-Emotive methods for serious psychological problems.

Since this thread is about mental disorders, have a look (below) at the criteria for the Obsessive Personality...very interesting.

http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis1/p21-pe10.html

Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder

Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of preoccupation with orderliness, perfectionism, and mental and interpersonal control, at the expense of flexibility, openness, and efficiency, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

1. is preoccupied with details, rules, lists, order, organization, or schedules to the extent that the major point of the activity is lost
2. shows perfectionism that interferes with task completion (e.g., is unable to complete a project because his or her own overly strict standards are not met)
3. is excessively devoted to work and productivity to the exclusion of leisure activities and friendships (not accounted for by obvious economic necessity)
4. is overconscientious, scrupulous, and inflexible about matters of morality, ethics, or values (not accounted for by cultural or religious identification)
5. is unable to discard worn-out or worthless objects even when they have no sentimental value
6. is reluctant to delegate tasks or to work with others unless they submit to exactly his or her way of doing things
7. adopts a miserly spending style toward both self and others; money is viewed as something to be hoarded for future catastrophes
8. shows rigidity and stubbornness

[MTMER]

The "secondary depression" is just based on my own experience -- it's probably a common phenomenon.

I also agree that GTD would be a mess to implement in the midst of a bad depressive episode. My very limited experience has been that having the structure in place before a bad episode made it easier to keep moving. GTD didn't "fix" the depression, but it did allow me to hold on to some small pieces of my normal self -- that helped me weather the lows.

Meg

[Unregistered]

I have depression and anxiety. A few years ago I did CBT and it helped tremndously, in fact if you're ready to feel better I'm a firm believer that's the way out without medication. I jsut read GTD last weekend. I loved it so much I wrote my CBT therapist a letter suggesting she look into it for helping her patients.

More than anything I think it helps with anxiety. Symptoms of anxiety include worry, a sense of overwhelming doom, constant spinning over the same thought. One of the things CBT teaches you is to get those thoughts -- out of your head, so you can examine them.

CBT helps with the internal view. The emotional organization. How to examine and evaluate the messages you tell yourself (often you don't realize the extent of your internal dialog until you go through the CBT process.) The theory being that thoughts/feelings/behaviors are all eelated. Each influences the other. If you can control one of those, you can affect the other two.

That said from what I've read in GTD. GTD provides amazing techniques for the next phase. How to organize the external. And how to organize your interactions no so much with your internal dialog, but the dialog you have with the world. It also provides a guide for how to get it all out of your head in an organized and productive fashion.

Also, the technique of breaking things down to next steps is incredibly helpful for both depression and anxiety. For depression it makes it easier to get going. A little step at a time. For anxiety it would help break down that overwhelming panic sense of doom into manageable actions.

Like another poster said, CBT and GTD complement each other. I don't think someone who has depression or anxiety could just do GTD and feel better. You really have to get a handle on the internal messages before you start with the external. Without changing that you might not be able to see or feel your progress. You might sabotage yourself with negative thinking, you're not even aware of.

That said, GTD is definitely the next phase. I can't wait to implement it.

[CosmoGTD]

Here is a very basic fact sheet about CBT.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/info/factsheets/pfaccog.asp

[Jamie Elis]

I agree with all of the above but would add that there are a few ways that GTD can be especially helpful.
1. anything that reduces stress helps.
2. clarifying thinking is always helpful.
3. If you are not taking care of your basic business due to emotions then doing the work step by step can only help.You will feel more in control.
4. Some depressions are charcterized by "work inhibition" and I don't know of any clinical approach that really takes on that symptom as a focus of treatment.

There are sometimes when GTD could possibly do some harm:
1. Someone in a manic state or getting into one who does not realize that he or she is getting "up there".
2. Someone who is so obsessive that he or she just obsesses about GTD methodology and doing it not right but just perfectluy, hair splitting the terminology, etc and never gets to an action.
3. Someone whose goals are anti-social.
4. Someone who is too fragile to take the bigger perspective.
5. Someone who tries to adopt the system too fast.
6. Someone who believes it is a substitute for treatment.
7.Someone who floats from one self-help method to another, hopeing and praying that it will finally work but just can't work the method and then feels like a failure. That person would be wise to pick one step and do that step until he or she gets it right or has a clear reason for why it does not apply to them.

[GreySim]

The "secondary depression" thing mentioned above has happened to me also, so it's not just Meg (if I remember who made that original post).

______
Dennis
(Considering registering for the forums when I get home.)

[jerendeb]

I have not fully actualized GTD in my life to my satisfaction. I have had many challenges that are in the realm of this topic. I do know one big thing, when I am able to harness the desperation that accompanies my own intolerance of being disordered + the traits which are similar to OCPD (namely an above average attention to detail) + the discipline needed to keep it together, this all = self-esteem/self-repect/self-confidence and at the very least the illusion of having 'it' all together. Then I am free to be paying attention to all those other altitudes & levels of life.

[pbs]

I have suffered from depression for many years and have been on medication for 16 years. I purchased the GTD book, thinking it would help me "get my life in order". Anyway, I have put the book away and abandoned all hope of implementing GTD because it just seems so overwhelming and doesn't appear to have "structure" (for lack of a better word) to it. Something about not having a "To Do" list just throws me off balance and I can't seem to grasp how to handle daily workflow with GTD. Any suggestions?

[Arduinna]

Some things about GTD did not make real sense to me until I got the Time/Design system. It's set up physically in a way that holds information in a logical way, so it's all accessible but ordered and not overwhelming. It is, IMO, the missing piece of the puzzle. I hadn't known DA's history with Time/System (Time/Design) until recently, and while the absence of a recommendation for the system is understandable, it seems a shame.

I have no relationship to Time/System except as a new customer, and I am still doing basic GTD implementation, so take my recommendation accordingly. But for if you're having trouble putting a GTD system together and want to be paper-based, I think it's worth a look.

[PT1]

<<I have suffered from depression for many years and have been on medication for 16 years. I purchased the GTD book, thinking it would help me "get my life in order". Anyway, I have put the book away and abandoned all hope of implementing GTD because it just seems so overwhelming and doesn't appear to have "structure" (for lack of a better word) to it. Something about not having a "To Do" list just throws me off balance and I can't seem to grasp how to handle daily workflow with GTD. Any suggestions>>

Hi,

I have depression and ADHD/LD and can relate to your situation. Initially, when I purchased the book, it was like reading Greek to me as it made no sense whatsoever. But by being on the GTD Yahoo Lists and coming to this forum, I started to get some understanding. As a result, I found it easier to understand the book although I am definitely not at a black belt level.

Regarding doing away with the "to do" list, I can't intuitively pick out what needs to be done from a list of tasks. My eyes simply would glaze over and I fear I would miss something important.

So I first schedule anything that has to be done on a certain day such as picking up meds by placing it in my task list. They get a 1 priority. Afterward, I list any task that I would like to get done and their priority is 2. If anything doesn't get done, I am perfectly content in moving them to another day as I use Agendus for the Desktop and Agendus for the Palm.

I do try to slot tasks that have the same context on the same day. For example, on Friday, I am going to a shopping mall to buy summer clothes and also buy a bus pass since a bank near the mall sells them.

During the work week, I try to keep my task list as light as possible as I know my energy level isn't the same as it is on the weekends.

I would definitely follow Cosmo's advice and start simple. Also, apply what works for you and discard the rest. The best part of GTD for me is the way that projects are broken down. For someone like me who often doesn't have a clue as to where to start with a project, this is so valuable.

Finally, I know this is hard but GTD is not going to make up for what is not working in your life such as a bad job or a rotten relationship. But it can definitely give you the impetus to do something about it although obviously, that won't happen right away if you are dealing with depression.

Yesterday, I wanted to cry as I have done in the past when I had the day from h-ll at work. In the past, I wouldn't have gotten anything done the rest of the day. This time, it was different as I stayed focused and completed some necessary tasks.

Finally, I have started tracking how much of my time I am spending in different areas of my life with Agendus's Palm chart. When I am really tired or discouraged, I find it very uplifting to look at that chart and see that I really have been accomplishing alot.

Personally, I wouldn't do this for now but maybe down the road, you want to do something similar and track your accomplishments. It doesn't have to be as fancy as what I am doing.

I hope this helps and feel free to ask me any follow up questions.

PT

[Peter, still unregistered]

Hi Arduinna,

I noticed yuo mention some "obvious" clash between DA and TS. I am interested in hearing what you know, or is there a web link I can refer to?

Peter.

[Arduinna]

Hi Peter, still unregistered,

Here is the thread in which I read the story--last post.
http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2870

BTW, a 2004 thread on Time/Design is now active in the "Gear" forum, and it includes a link to a TS website that provides a number of the forms free, in PDF format. Printing a bunch and playing with them for a few days led me to buy the system.
http://www.ts.mvecrm.de/index.php?st_location=home/service/print_service&st_version=active

Hope that helps.

[Unregistered]

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[CLewis]

This discussion reminded me of my reaction when I viewed a TV advertisement recently for a new sleep aid that would counteract the problem of a mind racing with commitments precluding falling asleep. I immediately thought that it would be interesting to run a GTD ad in tandem. One aid is a band-aid, the other may well be a more lasting tool for addressing the problem!

[Unregistered]

I've had some personal experience with depression, and I've had some luck keeping it at bay.

I don't think it's realistic to think that GTD is "the answer" to depression. But it seems very reasonable to me to think that it could help. From what I know about depression, I think that it would help.

You really need to attack depression with a full court press -- it's a complicated problem that requires a fairly complicated response. I try to exercise as much as possible, and I eat well. I make a point of socializing. And I try to stay on top of things that cause stress -- there's no doubt that stress can push you into the hole. Obviously, that's where GTD comes in.

My doctor told me that there are three broad categories of causes for depression. First of all, some people have brains that are more prone to depression than others -- there seems to be a physical or chemical difference between people. Second of all, things that happened when your personality was being formed can make you more or less prone to depression. But finally, things that are happening can cause depression -- if a spouse dies, or you get really sick, or you lose your job, you can become depressed.

I'm probably less robust in the face of trying circumstances than most people -- bad things that might not push someone else into a depression might get me. Presumably, that's because of factors that belong to one of the first two categories.

I don't know if you've heard of the bucket analogy that they use for allergies. Imagine you have a bucket that's filling up with allergens, and that's draining through a hole at the bottom. If the allergens overflow the bucket, you have problems. But if they come in at a rate slow enough to allow them to drain through the bottom without overflowing, you're ok.

I think that the analogy might apply to stress as well. There are things you could handle singly that overwhelm you when they hit all at once -- when you're bucket starts to overflow, you're in trouble. If you're prone to depression (as I am), you can think of yourself as having a smaller than average bucket. But perhaps GTD makes the hole in the bottom of the bucket bigger -- it allows you to handle more stressful situations than you'd be able to without it.

When I do fall into the hole (which happens less and less frequently), I try to "break the back" of the depression early on with medication. It's been very helpful for me to learn how to recognize it when I start to slip. It's much easier to prevent yourself from falling into the hole than it is to climb out of it once you're in.

There are things that I do that serve as warning flags for me -- if I start to blow off my exercises, hole up by myself and not talk to people, if my sleeping becomes more erratic, it suggests that I should start watching myself more carefully.

I'd encourage anyone who feels depressed to see a good doctor. The main problem with this thread is that whether it helps or not, using the GTD system shouldn't be at the core of your depression fighting strategy. Getting treatment from a good doctor should be at the core.

Depression is a problem that can be managed for most people. I've found that there are enormous differences between the best psychiatric doctors and everyone else. My guy is on the faculty of a major medical school -- look for someone like that. Don't say, "This is just the way I am." Fight back. Use the best people to help -- be wary of alternative schemes, or experts who claim to know things that doctors don't. I'm also wary of therapists who are "in the bunker" -- who base everything on their own experiences providing therapy, and who aren't up on the literature and dealing with colleagues on a regular basis. That's why med school guys are worth seeking out.

The question isn't really whether GTD is going to cure your depresison. The question is whether or not you're better off using the system, if the benefits justify the cost in time and effort. If it does, you should do it, and if you do it and it helps your depression, that's great. If it doesn't help your depression, at least you're more productive and better at your job.

[ProfDD]

I have read that GTD is making great inroads into helping ADD people have a more meaningful life. GTD is a tool that can give so many people hope.

. . . .

Since Next-Action decision making produces Clarity, Accountability, Productivity, and Empowerment, it seems that this way of life would be an antidote preventing the slide into mental illness.

I doubt that most mental illness is 'caused' by the stress of modern life. Much is caused by inherited or developmental maladaptaions in brain chemistry.

Sometimes stressful changes in one's life cause the maladaptations to become evident.



Do you have a story about how GTD has pulled you, or someone you know, out of the clutches of depression or another form of mental illness?

I fortunately discovered GTD on-line around the same time that I finally was getting an adequate dosage of the medication I now use for ADD.

My entire life was a record of high achievement at top academic institutions coupled with underachievement outside structured work environments. My experience in my personal life resembled my lack of success in unstructured work environments. I lowered my expectations from life significantly.

GTD gives me the tools to actually have a reasonable expectation of success in attacking meaning projects to reach personal goals. I do not yet KNOW whether I will succeed, but I EXPECT to.



I know that depression is still "taboo" talk in many circles, especially if it is from personal knowledge.

Some people are ashamed of their brain chemistry because people accidentally, carelessly, or intentionally humiliate them. Some children are labelled as having 'Oppositional Defiant Disorder' for fighting against the humiliation, sometimes inflicted by parents, teachers, and other authorities.



Can you envision a future where GTD is the drug of choice instead of Paxil, Prozac, or Lexipro?

Stephen
GTD will never be a substitute for a drug. It can be a substitute for some of the less effective behavioral therapies for ADD or - better - a tool in a behavioral therapy program.

[Unregistered]

In the big picture, we are really just learning about the brain, so I wouldn't say most mental illness is biologically/chemically based-not just now. There is an old model of mental illness called the "diathesis-stress" model which simply states that if a person has vulnerable genetics and they experience enough stress, the result is mental illness. Vague, but to me makes intuitive sense.

For those dealing with OCD, you might find the book "Brain Lock" to be of interest. Tons of books on ADD: check out those by Russ Barkley. Ed Hallowell wrote "Driven to Distraction" and "Answers to Distraction." His new book just came out and is pretty good (don't recall the name of it).

I do not view GTD as a therapeutic technique (nor did David pitch it this way), rather (as stated previously) it can be an effective tool as part of a comprehensive treatment plan. A good clinician will know which tool to use and when to use it. GTD at the wrong time could be a disaster with an OCD person. Anxiety drives OCD and a way to keep this anxiety at bay is to obssess in thoughts and perhaps perform compulsive behaviors.

Some kids may get mislabeled as ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), but a good clinician will be able to make an accurate diagnosis.

As a psychologist, I do treat people who come to see me for a variety of problems including ADD, OCD, ODD, and depression.

Jeff

[majikstreet]

Hi,
GTD helps you be more organized and complete tasks, right? This makes you feel better about yourself. Depressed people (I am one of them) generally feel bad about themselves. Being organized and accomplishing tasks makes people feel better. True, GTD isn't a replacement for a drug.

A note about the endorphins: When you exercise or complete tasks, your body releases endorphins and causes you to feel good. They are like a natural pain-killer. In addition to completing tasks with GTD, when you first implement the system, you probably get some exercise!

Thanks,
majikstreet
(I actually haven't read the whole book-- still reading it!)

[ProfDD]

Majikstreet

Everything you said might be true, but I would still not want to say that GTD made a long-term positive contribution to "curing" depression. An analogy: there are plenty of drugs that relieve symptoms, but make a negative long-term contribution to recovery from the disease they purport to treat.