The "Values" Thing

[Vilmosz]

Havne't posted here much lately, though I do use GTD principles.

A couple of months ago I read an essay by blogger and prolific entrepreneur named Paul Graham excoriating the notion of lists and next actions -- basically he said, just ask yourself what is the most important thing you need to do, and everything will flow from there. (I simplify greatly... here is the link http://www.paulgraham.com/procrastination.html. You will note that he specifically alludes to "getting things done."

What he wrote has stayed with me.

But this isn't specifically about that.

Rather it's about the issue of why some people seem to NEED (or, less stridently, benefit from) GTD and others coast by without nary a list in the world.

I think it comes back to what I consider for myself anyway the hardest thing to define in charting one's course through life: Values. The best self-help books, including those by Robbins and Tracy (say what you will about either, I think their systems are well-developed if nothing else) insist that defining one's values is the most essential step of the journey.

For myself, I can say it is the most difficult step. I don't think values were clearly communicated to me as a child or youth (indeed, values were POORLY communicated and when they were communicated, seemed contradictory and flimsy) and as I look at the areas of my life which now require inordinate FIXING, the values issue comes up -- I can see for the first time how values have led to problems and how values can point the way out of the problems (though solving them is more complex than just that).

Looking around me, I can say that those who seem to struggle the most either haven't defined values or have defined them poorly.

Incidentally, there is a parallel to this in the arts. As a writer, I have noticed that the best novels and films have clear themes -- and there are writing gurus who insist that their students first identify the THEME of their work BEFORE writing it out. That is a HARD thing to do -- everyone wants to begin writing about the cop chasing the bad guy and the cop wins and then the cop's estranged wife comes back to him. But the stories which actually work have a theme that can be discerned beneath the fabric of every scene -- love is more important than money, hard work trumps innate talent, big government is evil, true art takes great sacrifice -- whatever. If the theme is true in every element of the story, the story, no matter how many times it has been told, resonates.

I believe that "values" are the themes of life. If every action we do is consistent with our truest values, then you can coast, like Paul Graham.

If not, you need tools. GTD is a good one.

Graham writes:

"In his famous essay You and Your Research (which I recommend to anyone ambitious, no matter what they're working on), Richard Hamming suggests that you ask yourself three questions:

1. What are the most important problems in your field?

2. Are you working on one of them?

3. Why not?"

As I read the Graham piece again it occurs to me how really, really, really hard it is for me to identify, claim and be true to values. Because if my value is simply "BE RESPONSIBLE" than the answers to Graham's/Hamming's questions become very easy to answer indeed.

[Mike M]

Nice post.

The problem is that most of us have lives that require us to do things that are not high on our "Values" lists both personally and professionally. They must be done anyway or we get in trouble (or worse). GTD works well on these things but also keeps the tasks of value visible in the mist of those that we have to do whether we "value" them or not.

Just my two cents worth.

Mike

[kewms]

When you're independently wealthy, it's pretty easy to coast. The rest of us don't have the luxury of delegating everything that we personally don't want to do.

Katherine

[flexiblefine]

Looking around me, I can say that those who seem to struggle the most either haven't defined values or have defined them poorly.
Yes, that's me. I spent a lot of years looking at my feet, thinking about the next step, instead of looking at the horizon trying to figure out where I wanted to go.

Can someone offer suggestions about way to help me discover or define my values? Preferably a book or something I can refer to later, to refresh my mind about why I'm supposed to be doing these things? I think that having a clear set of values and understanding how our daily tasks feed those values will help me stay motivated.

And yes, even though we are asked to do lots of things we don't value in themselves, those things are usually parts of jobs we took because we valued them somehow or because the income helps us meet other values.

[tominperu]

Of course values are important, but we need other things too. GTD is for me just a memory system. However clear and good my values are I know from my experience that I will forget to do things that I need to do. It doesn't matter if they are closely related to my values - I still forget them! The knitty kritty of life is complex and if we can cope with it more easily, then we have more time and energy to reevaluate our lifes on a periodic basis - whiich seems to be what you are suggesting.

I think focussing on the GTD system can get a bit obsessive, as many of the posts demostrate - but I think most of realise its just a tool and not that important in itself.

[mcogilvie]

Can someone offer suggestions about way to help me discover or define my values? Preferably a book or something I can refer to later, to refresh my mind about why I'm supposed to be doing these things? I think that having a clear set of values and understanding how our daily tasks feed those values will help me stay motivated.


Your Best Year Yet, by Jenny Ditzler

[Scott_L_Lewis]

When you're independently wealthy, it's pretty easy to coast. The rest of us don't have the luxury of delegating everything that we personally don't want to do.

Katherine

BINGO! I'll bet the people who work for him need GTD. ;-)

[Scott_L_Lewis]

As a writer, I have noticed that the best novels and films have clear themes -- and there are writing gurus who insist that their students first identify the THEME of their work BEFORE writing it out. That is a HARD thing to do...

Sometimes you have to start writing and allow the theme to emerge. You can see this happening by looking at the notebooks of composers or the studies done by painters and sculptors. They start out by playing around, trying different things, but after a while the work starts to crystallize.

On a similar vein, it is sometimes useful to take a look at what you are doing and how you are living your life and determine what values you are actually living. Once you become aware of that, you face a decision as to whether you will start living in accordance with the values you actually have or the values you think you ought to have.

I have tried "values clarification" exercises, and they have not worked for me. The reason is that I made the mistake of thinking it was a one-shot deal instead of an ongoing process where values are clarified, lived, and then evolve.

[Busydave]

Can someone offer suggestions about way to help me discover or define my values? Preferably a book or something I can refer to later, to refresh my mind about why I'm supposed to be doing these things?

Try the I-beam test. It’s either in Covey’s “7 Habits” or Hyrum W Smith’s “10 Natural Laws of Successful Time and Life Management”.

Dave

[Brent]

Can someone offer suggestions about way to help me discover or define my values? Preferably a book or something I can refer to later, to refresh my mind about why I'm supposed to be doing these things?

One good book that covers this is Gelb's How to Think like Leonardo Da Vinci.

One good method is to journal every day, on the topic of what ticks you off. What are the things other people do that "get to you?" Usually, it's because they're violating values that are important to you.

Defining your values can take a long time. Months of thinking and writing. In my opinion, it should take a while.

[jkgrossi]

Rather it's about the issue of why some people seem to NEED (or, less stridently, benefit from) GTD and others coast by without nary a list in the world.


Well, it seems to me that it's not really a question of values, rather, a question of how hard the edges are around the stuff that you need to get done.

Using an example from my own experience, I'll illustrate with two scenarios:

1) In my line of work, I need to define my actual work on a daily basis. I basically make up much of what I do. There are very few "hard edges" around my work, so every day I'm challenged with figuring out what to do next toward the completion of my projects. I use GTD religiously, and have found it to be tremendously beneficial in tracking all of the open loops in my life. If I were to forgo the use of GTD, stuff would still get done, but many balls would invariably drop in the process.

2) In contrast, I have a friend who is a locksmith. Every day, when he comes into work he's given a job and a set number of tasks to complete. The edges in his work are very hard, and he has little input into what he does on a daily basis. In his case, I think that a "system" (GTD or otherwise) would simply bog him down. To use David's metaphor, he basically walks in the door, is given a bunch of widgets to punch, and begins punching. At the end of the day, the number of widgets he punched is the number of widgets he punched. He'll get a new batch the next day when he comes to work.

Less to do with value clarification, more to do w/necessity defined by the nature of the work that you do IMHO.

I've found it to be relatively difficult to realize values without actually putting them to the test. It's rather easy to conceptualize ones values, but how is one to know unless it is challenged?

It seems to me that Graham's thinking about the subject is very high-level.

If all one had to do in a given day is work on the most pressing problems (i.e. push back all of the runway level stuff that goes on in the rest of your work), then yes, I think Graham's ideas have merit. However, most of us don't have that luxury, and that's the preeminent reason for the need of a system such as GTD.

[Brent]

For me at this point, I just trust my gut, trust my intution, trust my own thinking. If I don't want to do it, then I don't do it. If I have to do it, then I want to do it, so I do it. If i want to do it, then go for it, give it a shot.

I suggest that you have already determined your own values internally and are guided by them.

Not everyone is so blessed.

[kewms]

Everyone has values. Everyone acts in accordance with those values. The question is whether the values you demonstrate by your actions are the ones that you would like to show to whatever higher powers you believe in. (Noting that higher powers in this context include employers, family, community, etc.)

For example, just about everyone says that they value their spouse, children, or other family. But when push comes to shove, plenty of people actually put their job first. As they say, actions speak louder than words.

So I agree with Cosmo. Throw the trendy self-help books away and read some of humanity's vast store of wisdom literature instead. Create space to listen to what your heart/conscience/better angels/whatever you call it is telling you, and find the courage to act accordingly.

It's that simple, and that difficult.

Katherine

[Brent]

I suppose I could be deluding myself, and that all those Values books-exercises I did in the past did actually help me to clarify my values, which I now take for granted.
But I really don't think so.


No, no, that's not what I'm saying! I think you're (thankfully) very healthy, but that your experience does not necessarily track with others'.

It seems to me that you never needed to sit down and explicitly define your real values. It seems that you've internally figured out your values and how to live by them. Great!

However, many people have not figured out their real values and do need to do conscious, "sit down with a piece of paper" work to define them.

By "real values" I mean the sorts of things that kewms describes. Yes, we're all guided by values, but not necessarily by the values that feed our hearts.

[mcogilvie]

However, many people have not figured out their real values and do need to do conscious, "sit down with a piece of paper" work to define them.

By "real values" I mean the sorts of things that kewms describes. Yes, we're all guided by values, but not necessarily by the values that feed our hearts.

My wife and I have practiced in the past a well-known decision-making technique where we make a table with decision factors, with weights, along the top, and alternatives along the left-hand side. Most people have some familiarity with this sort of thing. In almost every case, this technique came up with the wrong answer for us, and we both knew it intuitively. When confronted with the clear superiority of something we didn't want, we either chose otherwise, or found new options. After many years of marriage, we don't even need to make the table anymore. We're able to say "I'm not comfortable with this alternative at this time" and go from there. Most people come up with a rather banal list of "things that feed our hearts" if they try to force the list out. Religions have always known this: values can be clarified in a moment if it's the right moment, or clarified over time, but rarely by conscious will. Pascal may have been a notable exception.

[jkgrossi]

My wife and I have practiced in the past a well-known decision-making technique where we make a table with decision factors, with weights, along the top, and alternatives along the left-hand side. Most people have some familiarity with this sort of thing. In almost every case, this technique came up with the wrong answer for us, and we both knew it intuitively. When confronted with the clear superiority of something we didn't want, we either chose otherwise, or found new options. After many years of marriage, we don't even need to make the table anymore. We're able to say "I'm not comfortable with this alternative at this time" and go from there. Most people come up with a rather banal list of "things that feed our hearts" if they try to force the list out. Religions have always known this: values can be clarified in a moment if it's the right moment, or clarified over time, but rarely by conscious will. Pascal may have been a notable exception.

Exactly... you made the point much better than I did.

I tend to agree w/CosmoGTD in the sense that value choices are made intuitively, not consciously.

An example is the father that lists "time with his children" high on his list of values, but always puts work ahead of his kids. What do his actions say he values more, career or kids?

[ADD GTDer]

It wasn't until I studied Bucky Fuller in great detail, where he said to learn to TRUST YOUR OWN THINKING, that I began to get anywhere. In my entire life and education, everyone tries to ram stuff down your throat, and tell you what to think.
But reading Bucky, he talked about doing the opposite. Learning to trust your own thinking and Intuition. (In-Tuition)...


This sounds of interest to me. Is there a particular book/publication you can recommend?

Janice

[ADD GTDer]

Isn't it ironic that I am criticizing books that help one to clarify their values by recommending books that help people to clarify their values!...[url]


I guess it IS kind of ironic, isn't it???

Thanks for looking up those resources! I look forward to learning more about Bucky Fuller.

Janice

[Cikub]

I tried to think about the Values Thing as much as I could, and I came to the conclusion that it is just a mental construct, that may have little to do with the reality of the person's behavior.
As has been said, you ask anyone, "what's you most important value?" and people will say my Family, meanwhile their #1 value is achievement and money, perhaps, as they see their kids 15 minutes a night.
As a matter of fact, I would go far as to say our PROFESSED values often are a smokescreen for our real values, that we try to hide from ourselves due to shame. An example of this is the author of "What Matters Most", who was acting in direct opposition with his "values" for a long time. Busted!
...
Also, much of the so-called values stuff can lead to hypocrisy and denial.
Also, if we take our Values from some type of book, or are influenced by this, then we are betraying our own nature and conscience.



Exactly... you made the point much better than I did.

I tend to agree w/CosmoGTD in the sense that value choices are made intuitively, not consciously.

An example is the father that lists "time with his children" high on his list of values, but always puts work ahead of his kids. What do his actions say he values more, career or kids?

I hate to pick on you guys, because I'm sure that we wouldn't disagree much if we ironed out the language, but I feel there is some very backwards, fatalistic logic presented here that self-proclaimed pedophiles would probably embrace.

The whole point of values exercises is not to obtain values that we don't already have, it's to consciously recognize our (many) existing but conflicting values so that we can focus on the ones that are most important to us.

You seem to be saying that the man who doesn't spend time with his kids should just shrug his shoulders and tell his family "Since I spend so much time at the office, my work is obviously more important to you--so tough luck." That's absurd, of course. If that man sat down and thought about how his actions really compared with how much he really values his family, he would likely make some changes in how he uses his time. Please don't try to tell me that millions of people every day don't make that kind of decision and then act on it.

I read the same kind of responses here when mission statements come up--that they should be abandoned because companies don't follow them to the letter. Unethical companies need mission statements the most!

In short, values and mission statements are behavior goals, not dictionary definitions of our personalities.

C

[sonia_simone]

Identifying values is the first step. The second step is developing a way to be conscious of action (maybe tracking time or money spent every day, or some other objective way to look at what you are doing). The third step is to compare the two and see things are matching up.

Without the second and third steps, the value of the first step is considerably diminished.

[dal1mdm]

Interesting that virtues were once the desirable trait - now its values...

In my opinion its all about integrity. Not just being honest and all that, but the character of one's life. In his excellent book on the topic, Henry Cloud says that we all leave a wake behind us in life. When you look back, what do you see? What would you like the wake to look like in the future?

I'm intrigued by a new Sales Director in our ourganization. He's making classic ego errors and seems blind to how he is perceived. I keep asking myself how he ever managed to become a Director. Its because he's very good at making deals and managing tasks, but he lacks character and its eventually going to eat his lunch.

My book suggestions (to be read alongside one another):
The Abolition of Man by CS Lewis
Lost in the Cosmos by Walker Percy

[Rainer Burmeister]

Interesting that virtues were once the desirable trait - now its values...
In my opinion its all about integrity. Not just being honest and all that, but the character of one's life.

"Never esteem anything as of advantage to you that will make you break your word or lose your self-respect."
Marcus Aurelius (121 - 180, Roman emperor and stoic philosopher)

[dal1mdm]

"For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique..."

from "The Abolition of Man" by CS Lewis (1898-1963)

[flexiblefine]

It's that simple, and that difficult.
And that's how I feel about the whole thing. Understanding my values, knowing myself, whatever we want to call it... it sounds simple, but it isn't.

When I went to a Franklin Planner seminar many years ago, I didn't want to go on a journey of personal discovery in order to learn how to use a planner. My life has changed a lot since then, and now I do want to become more conscious of why I do the things I do. I have a wife and son now, and I want to be a better person for them.

Maybe a good starting point for me is to sit down somewhere quiet with pen and journal and just listen to myself for a while. It has helped me in the past...

[kewms]

When I went to a Franklin Planner seminar many years ago, I didn't want to go on a journey of personal discovery in order to learn how to use a planner.

That's probably still a good instinct. Using a planner should be easy -- otherwise you've got the wrong planner.

Voyages of personal discovery can be very difficult. A planner might be helpful along the way, but in exactly the same way that a rope is helpful to a mountain climber. In the end, it isn't the rope that gets you up the mountain.

Katherine

[jkgrossi]

You seem to be saying that the man who doesn't spend time with his kids should just shrug his shoulders and tell his family "Since I spend so much time at the office, my work is obviously more important to you--so tough luck." That's absurd, of course. If that man sat down and thought about how his actions really compared with how much he really values his family, he would likely make some changes in how he uses his time. Please don't try to tell me that millions of people every day don't make that kind of decision and then act on it.
C

No, what I'm saying is that actions speak louder than words. What I'm saying is that if a man says that he values time with his kids over his carrer, and his actions are not congruent with that, he truly doesn't value his career more than his kids.

I know many people personally who, when going through a values exercise, listed time with their family as one of their top three values (and subsequently, higher than career). Yet, most of these same individuals rarely have dinner with their family, and often miss events in lieu of working late.

So, by sheer observation, one can only conclude that these people place career ahead of family, even though conceptually they say differently. How can it be otherwise?

I won't try to tell you that millions of people every day don't make that kind of decision and then act on it, because I have know way of knowing if that is true or false. Without sufficient data to support that conclusion, we can only speak from our own experiences and observations. What I've experienced and observed indicates that what individuals value conceptually is often very different than their actual values when tested.

[Cikub]

So, by sheer observation, one can only conclude that these people place career ahead of family, even though conceptually they say differently. How can it be otherwise?
...
What I've experienced and observed indicates that what individuals value conceptually is often very different than their actual values when tested.

I think that's my point exactly. The purpose of going through a values exercise is to come to the realizaton that there is a disconnect between what they think they value and what they are valuing by their actions. There must be *some* reason that these people put family at the top of the list--and I doubt it's because its socially expected (at least not for most of them). The failure of these people is not that they have conflicting values, it's in giving into what's more urgent or what provides the most immediate satisfaction at the cost of long term happiness.

A more extreme example of the exact same problem would be drug addicts. Most addicts don't want to be on drugs but they feel emotionally and physiologically trapped. Should they give into the addiction that their actions prove they value, or should they never give up the fight to achieve freedom?

C

[jkgrossi]

Should they give into the addiction that their actions prove they value, or should they never give up the fight to achieve freedom?

C

Well, that depends on what they value. I believe that if they truly value freedom they'll fight for it and kick the drug habit. I've seen it happen personally. I feel that those addicts who don't fight and kick the habit value the high they get from the drugs more than freedom from addiction.

I also believe, as I stated, that the only way to truly uncover one's values is to test them. It's easy for me to sit down and write up a list of what I *think* my values are, but how can I know what they are without putting them to the test?

I'll give you an example from my own experience. When going through a values exercise, I once noted financial freedom higher up on my list than security.

If that holds true, then why do I continue to stay at my job (which I feel provides me with a degree of security) rather than strike out on my own?

The *only* answer is that I *truly* value security more than financial freedom, no matter what I wrote down on that piece of paper!

[Cikub]

I also believe, as I stated, that the only way to truly uncover one's values is to test them. It's easy for me to sit down and write up a list of what I *think* my values are, but how can I know what they are without putting them to the test?


I think this is the crux of our interesting disagreement. You feel that values are something to be discovered. I feel that values are something to be chosen.

C

[monkeyjava]

In working on my higher elevations, I decided that I needed to more clearly define my values. I figured that I should see them at 50,000 feet and be able to trace their influence all the way down to the runway. First I found that my values weren't very well defined. They exist certainly, but I would be hard pressed to define them for you in clear and concise sentences.

As I started to define my values, I discovered that things that were supposedly less important to me were showing up first when I was making runway-level lists. Things that did line up with my values weren't first and foremost in my mind. Suddenly my life, or the chaos that it's in, made more sense.

But why haven't I stayed true to myself? I have values, why don't I just live accordingly? Because I mistook other people's values as my own. Part of me tried to go along with it while another part rebelled. Do we choose our values or discover them? I found myself doing both.

[mcogilvie]

There must be *some* reason that these people put family at the top of the list--and I doubt it's because its socially expected (at least not for most of them). The failure of these people is not that they have conflicting values, it's in giving into what's more urgent or what provides the most immediate satisfaction at the cost of long term happiness.


There are lots of reasons why this happens, and I doubt that "not living your values" is the main reason. It's easy to do these values exercises that Franklin-Covey loves so much, but implementing them is another kettle of fish. Furthermore, I don't really think "long-term happiness" is a particularly useful concept. Long-term financial security, yes, but happiness- I would say if you are planning to have it later, you are probably going to miss out on it.



A more extreme example of the exact same problem would be drug addicts. Most addicts don't want to be on drugs but they feel emotionally and physiologically trapped. Should they give into the addiction that their actions prove they value, or should they never give up the fight to achieve freedom?


References to support this position? Scholarly or practical credentials? One of the problems of this kind of position on values is that it descends too easily into moralizing about the bad choices other people have made. People need to be valued more than values need to be valued. I admire anyone who has raised a teenager to adulthood without having anyone land in jail, independently of what priority they gave it.;)

[jkgrossi]

I think this is the crux of our interesting disagreement. You feel that values are something to be discovered. I feel that values are something to be chosen.

C

Well said... and I agree that's where we disagree!

And honestly, I don't completely disagree with you, because I believe that the true test of one's character is living up to the values that one chooses. In essence, one's ability to walk their talk.