"I want you to test this stuff out, even challenge it".

[ProjectThis!]

ProjectThis - I'm fine that you want to communicate whatever, in some appropriate manner - to me or to others, but your agenda seems something other than what this Forum is about. Frankly, I don't know anyone of any consequence on this planet who hasn't bothered and scared someone else by being who they are and sharing it with others. So? The good news about this discussion is the validation it has surfaced from those who follow my message: try it, and if it works, use it. If something works better, cool. I keep working on it, myself... I don't particularly like to play this way, but our WebMaster is tasked with keeping the Forums on track, so if you continue to pursue your agenda, it'll get nixed. - David Allen

Thank you for the message. I have no agenda, other than trying to understand what GTD is all about, and which parts of it work, and which parts of it don't work. Surely GTD could benefit from some scrutiny, and subjecting it to proper testing done by independent sources in various accredited universities.
Its vitally important for psychological systems like GTD to encourage and be totally open to analysis and criticism, and to not try to suppress it.

In the 'Welcome' to the book Getting Things Done, David asked us to try GTD, and even challenge it. The quote is...

"I want you to test this stuff out, even challenge it".

I have tested it out, and there are some parts of GTD that I think could be challenged, or rethought, or might be mistaken.

I don't think anyone would have any problem with labelers, filing, or making lists, and things of that nature.

But around page 230 of the book, it moves into other areas, where I do have some challenges. So I am going to briefly list a few of these challenges, and see if there are others who have some challenging parts of GTD as well.
GTD is not only just a few tricks to use. Its also stressed very clearly in the book that it is a totalist complete system for managing all of our personal and professional lives. My question is, does it actually work, or is the system too difficult to implement, and thus causes even more stress for some people?
I think this is a valid a reasoned question that could be objectively tested.

Here are a few areas I am not sure are necessarily correct.
-Agreements. On pg 230-235, the point is made that the agreements we have made are all held in present tense in the psyche. I don't think this is correct, as I know my brain can certainly tell the difference between the past and the future in most cases. My grandma had a stroke last year, and now she cannot tell the difference between agreements made last month, or 10 minutes ago.
Also, he says that we can break inner agreements we are not consciously aware of! That would seem to me to be speculative at best.
Also, that breaking these agreements are the cause stress, and that writing them all out will help relieve this. I don't know for sure, but I doubt this is accurate when taken too far. I think if a person attempts to capture 'all' of these, then this can create more stress, and not just in the short term. So basically I don't agree that breaking agreements with ourselves that we are not even aware of erodes self-trust and creates bad feelings. I do agree that consciously doing this can create problems at times, but going to far with this can easily backfire.
There are more issues in this area, but I'll leave it at that for the moment.

-Organizations. I don't think the full GTD process can be fully implemented in an organization, and I don't know if that is even desirable. It would be interesting to see objective 3rd party research on the results of attempting this. Also, getting groups to behave and think together in this fashion can lead to GroupThink. I personally would not want everyone to be thinking and acting in the same way in a group or organization, I personally find that somewhat creepy. Also, getting in my head that others should be more GTD-like, is going to make me more stressed. The bottom line is, if I am not their boss, or even if I am, I basically have to learn to accept a lot of 'unacceptable' human behavior that I don't like in people. If my expectations for others behavior are unrealistic, I am going to suffer, with frustration, anger and even intolerance.

-clear Psychic RAM. Does having clear psychic RAM make us more productive? Is it even possible to achieve this state? Is keeping 'everything out of your head' an achievable goal? Does not writing down a call make a person stressed? I don't know if it does. I know many people who are not particularly stressed, and they keep lots of things in their heads. I also know people who write everything down who are a mess. So again, I would think this could benefit from some careful testing, to see if it backfires for certain people. Also, there is often a genetic temperament component with these types of issues.

-Contexts. One thing that seems to be missing, is our ability to create and choose our own contexts based on personal priority. This is a minor issue, but one that can stump people.

-Stress-free productivity. I think that is obviously a catch-phrase, but I am not sure again, that is realistic. Reduced stress? Well, that can be objectively measured. Increased productivity? That also can be measured. But there ain't no such thing as 'stress-free' on this planet. But again, these things can be measured objectively by 3rd parties. Wouldn't it be interesting to see if the GTD process made certain types of people more stressed out? Is getting a Mind Like Water a realistic goal? Or is it another unattainable concept?

-GTD as a global thought process. David mentions that is his mission. But on a personal level, can the GTD methodology be gainfully applied to both our professions, and with our wives and kids? I personally think it is going way too far to push this type of systems thinking into one's intimate relationships, which is why most people 'grimace' when hearing the idea of directing the wife to your Inbox. I don't want to be hit on the head one day with an Inbox.

There are a number of other issues along these lines that I personally question. David said there is more to GTD than meets the eye, and that GTD can have a profound impact on people. This I do agree with. But its a profound error to think that the full monty of GTD is simply a few tricks to be more productive. GTD is presented as a totalist system, and even a comprehensive philosophy of life, and folks are strongly encouraged to try to implement the 'entire system', to get the 'full benefits'.
What can easily happen, is because this is so difficult to do, and certain aspects of GTD might not even be possible, it could theoretically make a person more confused, and stressed, and even to start blaming themselves for not being able to do it.
I believe it was the big man himself, Robert Scoble (Scobelizer) who mentioned that even he could not consistently apply and execute GTD.

So I agree that there is much more to GTD than meets the eye, and so it might be a good idea to have a look at those things with open eyes, and see where they work, and also where they do not work. It would be a shame if folks were blaming themselves, when it was certain aspects of the mental GTD system that was creating a problem for them.

Its vitally important for psychological systems like GTD to encourage and be totally open to analysis and criticism, and to not try to suppress it.

[Busydave]

Now you just sound silly.

[TesTeq]

Here are a few areas I am not sure are necessarily correct.
Come back when you will be sure. Apparently you have too much free time so you do not need GTD.

There are more issues in this area, but I'll leave it at that for the moment.
Good idea. Leave it for a longer period of time.

By the way - you require more openness from David Allen but your forum profile is empty. If you wanna stay here tell us who you are, where you come from and how we can help you.

[kewms]

You mean, some aspects of the GTD approach may not work for everyone?

The Horror! The Horror!

I think the same could be said of every self-improvement system ever invented, including almost all religions. (Probably all, but I'm not familiar with all of them.)

*yawn*

You clearly haven't read the rest of the forum, in which we spend a great deal of time discussing the benefits and limitations of GTD.

Come back when you have something insightful to say.

Katherine

[Longstreet]

Hi Folks,

While I do not agree with some of his comments, I think we need to be a little less intellectually arrogant and listen to his opinions and ideas. What is everyone afraid of? As a professor in a major research university, I do believe it is okay to question processes and dogma if there is not solid proof from independently conducted studies. Again, I think we should exchange ideas, refrain from personal slights, and listen to each other. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Longstreet

[Rainer Burmeister]

Its also stressed very clearly in the book that it is a totalist complete system for managing all of our personal and professional lives.You mean 'totalistic', don't you? If yes, I think you don't know what you are talking about.
Or do you mean 'all-embracing'?



Also, he says that we can break inner agreements we are not consciously aware of! That would seem to me to be speculative at best.People do this all the time, it's called 'self-deception'!



-clear Psychic RAM. Does having clear psychic RAM make us more productive? Is it even possible to achieve this state? Is keeping 'everything out of your head' an achievable goal? Does not writing down a call make a person stressed? I don't know if it does. Please read: http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24789&#post24789



-Contexts. One thing that seems to be missing, is our ability to create and choose our own contexts based on personal priority. This is a minor issue, but one that can stump people.Agreed. But many people using GTD have added non-context categories to their system, so this isn't a real problem on the long run.



-Stress-free productivity. For about 40 years I have been experiencing stress-free productivity almost every day. But without any training or method it lasted only 30 to 240 minutes per day. Using GTD I can experience it for several hours per day.


What can easily happen, is because this is so difficult to do, and certain aspects of GTD might not even be possible, it could theoretically make a person more confused, and stressed, and even to start blaming themselves for not being able to do it.Again: Read http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?p=24789&#post24789.

Not all parts of GTD work for everybody. So what?

Rainer

[Brent]

Wait, wait, wait. ProjectThis!, you said you've "tested" GTD. Does that mean you've actually tried the system yourself? If so, what happened?

Often, what seems illogical or non-sensical becomes clear and understandable when one actually experiences it. I'm surprised that you're still this critical of GTD after actually trying it.

[Tom Shannon]

I don't think anyone would have any problem with labelers, filing, or making lists, and things of that nature.

Well, then you really don't have a problem with the system, itself then. I mean not really. As far as I'm concerned, these are the practical issues. For anyone who wnats to stop reading now, this is the bottom line of my answer.


-Organizations. I don't think the full GTD process can be fully implemented in an organization, and I don't know if that is even desirable.

Its clear the GTD needs to be implemented on an individual basis. People can benefit as a group if they all use it and it works for them. Clearly the best you can do is encourage everyone in an organization to try it and see if it helps. I'm not in the buisness of defending DA and I certainly could be wrong but I don't remember anything in the GTD book, itself, that stated anything different. I remember many posters bring it up, though, so at minimum its worth addressing.


-clear Psychic RAM. Does having clear psychic RAM make us more productive? Is it even possible to achieve this state? Is keeping 'everything out of your head' an achievable goal?


-Stress-free productivity. I think that is obviously a catch-phrase, but I am not sure again, that is realistic. Reduced stress?

This concept resonated with me. I can only speak for myself but I am more productive for having implemented the system. And I certainly do feel less stressed as I use the issues to face the challenges of my daily life. I'm a worrier. And I really do worry about forgeting things. I didn't realize it till I read the book but it was a problem. It helped and I do worry less now. I don't need a study to tell me that.

Whether it will work for eveyone is a different story but I don't think that was ever a point. As DA quoted you in his replay, "Try it, if it works, use it." I think that's about all anyone can say and I don't remember anyone saying anything different.


-Contexts. One thing that seems to be missing, is our ability to create and choose our own contexts based on personal priority. This is a minor issue, but one that can stump people.

I think this is supposed to be outside of the methodology. You need to make those choices independently of GTD. I, personally, have never missed this. I believe the point in the book was that you no methodolgy will do a good job of it and that the best you can do is to make sure that you are considering everything before making those decisions yourself. I personally subscribe to this theory.

And theory it is. I think your call for scientific evaluation of these things is laudable but (IMO) the lack isn't really a problem. The thing is, it either works for you or it doesn't. It either helps or it doesn't. All the thoerizing about why it works is fine but that's all it is. I think you're fixating too much on little things that make no practical difference.

Having said that, your question about whether "clearing psychic RAM" (better known as "mind like water") is achievable is an interesting one. I have certainly not achieved it and I never took it as a draw back that it might not be a possibility. It's just a goal, if - maybe - not a practical one.

Let's put it this way. I'm a sinner. I'm constantly told not to do bad things. I certainly try my best not to. In theory, I could achieve the goal, a state where I'm without sin. But lets face it. Its not going to happen. I'm human and I'm a sinner. I'm always going to be one. Does that make the goal any less laudable? Should I stop working toward an ideal just because I'm never going to actualy get all the way there?

Again, practically speaking, is it even an issue? While your question is interesting to think about, it isn't going to affect my daily life much and it doesn't make GTD any less valid as a day-to-day practical system of operation. I can only speak for myself but I'm just not "worried" about it. :)

Tom S.

[mramm]

I have just read through both of ProjectThis' posts and find them absolutely laughable.

The first lenghty diatribe talks about the spiritual side of David Allen and apparently how GTD is trying to get us to his 'higher sense of being'. WHATEVER! I agree that every single concept that DA has is not original, and really a lot of common sense, but he brings that package together in a way that is helping me and a lot of other people work more efficiently.

This posting talks a lot about actual implementation of GTD to our lives. He seems to be stuck on the fact that GTD is an iron curtain system that only works the way DA outlined it. WRONG!

Every single person here has a GTD that is different from everyone else. It is VERY individualistic. The contexts that are laid out in the book are SUGGESTIONS to help you get started. My system has over 10 contexts in it, including an @Warcraft context for things that I want to do in a MMORPG game World of Warcraft. I don't think that DA ever thought about using that as a context.

The GTD concept may fall into a cult status, but I don't think that anyone worships DA as master of any part of their lives outside personal productivity.

If you don't like the system, please leave the boards so that those of us that do, can continue to share our experiences and GROW more productively [which is something that cults don't allow...growth].

Michael

[Busydave]

Yes, we’ve got a troll (classic case: comes to harmonious well functioning group spoiling for a fight); there’s an excellent paper somewhere on the Internet about this, which I read many moons ago … PT is exhibiting all the classic symptoms.

Trolls actually have no interest in the topics on a board: their only interest is conflict, waged from a hidden source.

[mcogilvie]

Hi Folks,

While I do not agree with some of his comments, I think we need to be a little less intellectually arrogant and listen to his opinions and ideas. What is everyone afraid of? As a professor in a major research university, I do believe it is okay to question processes and dogma if there is not solid proof from independently conducted studies. Again, I think we should exchange ideas, refrain from personal slights, and listen to each other. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

Longstreet

Hi Longstreet,

ProjectThis! suggests "Surely GTD could benefit from some scrutiny, and subjecting it to proper testing done by independent sources in various accredited universities." I too am on the faculty at a major research university, and we both know that this suggestion is a bit silly. As I recall, Time Design touts the results of some German study that shows their system saves x percentage of time. Who paid for it? They don't say, but I think it is fair to say that major US funding sources are not particularly interested in funding a study of claims that "putting items that need to be done on a list gets them off your mind and reduces stress." Of course, there are always those studies that show things like "frequency of teen sex is correlated with pregnancy." but they are a very small percentage of university research.

I am teaching a science and society course this semester, and the introductory lectures on "what is science?" coincided with national news about the teaching of evolution in public school. Critics of evolution often ask for more and more detailed proof as a debating tactic. For example, asking for very fine-grained transitions in the fossil record while saying that they do accept "microevolution." Critics of global warming studies have used the same tactic: more study is needed." I mention these examples for two reasons: 1) at some point, the consensus of the relevant community becomes clear; 2) universities have bigger issues to deal with than GTD.

[Longstreet]

Hi Mcogilvie,

The funding availability for such studies may be very limited. I am in the biomedical sciences so I am not sure why type of funding would be available to support such studies. And yes -- of course -- we ALL have greater issues to deal with at universities than GTD...to say the least!

Thanks for your post!

Longstreet

[TesTeq]

I think we need to be a little less intellectually arrogant and listen to his opinions and ideas.
...
Again, I think we should exchange ideas, refrain from personal slights, and listen to each other. We have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
I agree with you. Many times we asked ProjectThis to provide his opinions and ideas about GTD. I can hardly find anything in his posts that can be discussed on this forum. I think we are a very open community but ProjectThis' posts are rather in the witch hunts category.

[BigStory]

Well, just for fun, I think I would use this analogy of GTD as related to MSIA and John-Roger:

If you were to ingest some botulism toxin, you would die in very short order because it is poison. On the other hand, a strain of botulism toxin in microscopic amounts has been found to be useful and beneficial to others in enhancing their appearance. Just because one has the same source as the other doesn't make it bad.

David is on a "spiritual" journey, like all of us to one degree or another. Along the way he gathered some helpful information, some of which he incorporated into GTD and has passed on. I am sure he was happy to let some things he learned fall by the wayside, as well. I don't expect he has finished his search for truth, and who knows, some elements of his current spiritual life may fall by the way side as well. Either way, the botox version has been helpful to many, without requiring them to go any deeper than lists, labelers and Alpha files.

I wish David a truly productive search for truth, and the ability to be both open-minded and critically evaluative, and am thankful for the benefits I have recieved from his work on GTD.

Gordon

[jpm]

I did a quick literature review by Google and found some articles with citations. For those who might actually be interested in scholarly research on these subjects. I'll leave it to the reader to follow-up on the individual scientific papers.


- Agreements. On pg 230-235, the point is made that the agreements we have made are all held in present tense in the psyche. I don't think this is correct, as I know my brain can certainly tell the difference between the past and the future in most cases. ... Also, he says that we can break inner agreements we are not consciously aware of! That would seem to me to be speculative at best.
Also, that breaking these agreements are the cause stress, and that writing them all out will help relieve this.


Hard to really tell where ProjectThis! is coming from here.

Search Term: Conscious vs. unconscious commitments & stress

Scholarly Papers Results:
- Rasmussen with 13 citations

ProjectThis! seems to be neglecting David's point that we have both conscious and unconscious commitments. It is the unconscious ones that we are often not aware of, that can't tell time, and that can cause the most stress. At least that's the hypothesis as I understand it.



-Organizations. I don't think the full GTD process can be fully implemented in an organization, and I don't know if that is even desirable.

Search Term: Productivity and Organizational Workflow

Scholarly Results:
- Brynjolfssen - 430 citations
- Zhao - 14 citations
- Keen - 275 citations

There is tons of scholarly work on productivity out there. Many of the principles of GTD are not that new. There are probably dozens of studies on some of the things like keeping lists, two-minute rule, and keeping a master project list.



-clear Psychic RAM. Does having clear psychic RAM make us more productive? Is it even possible to achieve this state? Is keeping 'everything out of your head' an achievable goal? Does not writing down a call make a person stressed? I don't know if it does. I know many people who are not particularly stressed, and they keep lots of things in their heads. I also know people who write everything down who are a mess. So again, I would think this could benefit from some careful testing, to see if it backfires for certain people. Also, there is often a genetic temperament component with these types of issues.


Search Term: Distributed Cognition & Stress

Scholarly Results:
- Rogers - 65 citations
- Surrett - 62 citations
- Dillenberg - 27 citations




-Contexts. One thing that seems to be missing, is our ability to create and choose our own contexts based on personal priority. This is a minor issue, but one that can stump people.


Not an issue for research. Not an issue for GTD.



-Stress-free productivity. I think that is obviously a catch-phrase, but I am not sure again, that is realistic. Reduced stress? Well, that can be objectively measured. Increased productivity? That also can be measured. But there ain't no such thing as 'stress-free' on this planet. But again, these things can be measured objectively by 3rd parties. Wouldn't it be interesting to see if the GTD process made certain types of people more stressed out? Is getting a Mind Like Water a realistic goal? Or is it another unattainable concept?


Search Term: Flow (Yes, David has re-branded this as stress free productivity... a marketing liberty that is certainly well within the norm...)

Scholarly Results:
- Fox - 440 citations
- Schacter - 462 citations
- Hoge - 122 citations

Ton's of research on the physiological state of flow.



-GTD as a global thought process. David mentions that is his mission. But on a personal level, can the GTD methodology be gainfully applied to both our professions, and with our wives and kids? I personally think it is going way too far to push this type of systems thinking into one's intimate relationships, which is why most people 'grimace' when hearing the idea of directing the wife to your Inbox. I don't want to be hit on the head one day with an Inbox.


I love it when people ask for scholarly research and then give personal thoughts, feelings and anecdotal evidence in support of their positions... Not sure what hypothesis (if any) ProjectThis! is trying to test here. I'll leave the 2 minute google literature review to ProjectThis!

One final thought. ProjectThis! has framed GTD as a psychological system. I tend to think of it more as a productivity system with psychological benefits.

okay back to being productive...

[moises]

The challenges ProjectThis raises are legitimate ones. They are not ad hominem attacks on David Allen the person. They are criticisms and challenges levelled against GTD the system and I suggest we welcome them.

The fact is that others have criticized various parts of the GTD system on this forum and will continue to do so. Recently someone posted a message wherein David Allen stated that it might be OK to put a next action on the calendar; it's just that he doesn't do that so doesn't tell others to do it.

I think that ProjectThis is raising some profound issues. I think that at the most fundamental level, ProjectThis is correct. GTD is not merely a productivity system. It embodies a worldview, a psychology, and a philosophy.

The philosophy is one endorsed by many contemporary philosophers. The GTD philosophy provides an answer to the question, "What is the meaning of life?" It states that we create meaning in our life by pursuing goals and projects that we set for ourselves. The meaning of our lives is defined by the projects and endeavors we pursue.

The fact that such a view of the meaning of life is endorsed by many philosophers is not a strong argument in its favor. Such a view is certainly open to criticism. It appears to be a highly individualistic conception closely allied with a free-market economic system.

I think GTD's psychology is much more profound and controversial than its definition of the meaning of life.

ProjectThis states:


-clear Psychic RAM. Does having clear psychic RAM make us more productive? Is it even possible to achieve this state? Is keeping 'everything out of your head' an achievable goal? Does not writing down a call make a person stressed? I don't know if it does. I know many people who are not particularly stressed, and they keep lots of things in their heads. I also know people who write everything down who are a mess. So again, I would think this could benefit from some careful testing, to see if it backfires for certain people. Also, there is often a genetic temperament component with these types of issues.

David Allen appears to be aware that what is unique about GTD is its psychology. On pages 21-22 of the GTD book he writes, "The big difference between what I do and what others do is that I capture and organize 100 percent of my 'stuff' in and with objective tools at hand, not in my mind. And that applies to everything --little or big, personal or professional, urgent or not. Everything."

The previous quotation is David's assessment of what distinguishes GTD from other methods. It does not explain the "why," just the "what." The "why" is that, if we objectify (that is write down) all the thoughts in our head, we will be more relaxed, more efficient, and more able to have meaningful lives because we will be more likely to realize our life projects.

(David is a bit of a salesman. So, he says stuff like "stress-free." I translate that into "more relaxed." ProjectThis does us all a service by making us aware of what I would take to be exaggerations. Having lived my entire life in the USA, I take anyone's self-descriptions with a grain of salt. By the way, I am the most reasonable person I know. :grin: )

There is some scientific evidence to support David Allen's psychology. The books and articles of James W. Pennebaker, and the research program that he has inspired and which has been extended by others, provides some support to the claim that it is often psychologically therapeutic to express inner thoughts and feelings in written form. Pennebaker was not testing GTD specifically. But his research does suggest that the GTD claim that getting ideas out of your head and into written form might actually lessen anxiety and depression, and might actually increase one's happiness and successful realization of life projects.

ProjectThis writes that, "GTD is presented as a totalist system, and even a comprehensive philosophy of life, and folks are strongly encouraged to try to implement the 'entire system', to get the 'full benefits'." He goes on to state that this is difficult to do and some people might react badly to their inability to implement the system correctly.

I think that it is impossible to get everything out of my head and into my trusted system. I think that ProjectThis does us a service to make us aware of this. I do know that I have tried systems suggested by Alan Lakein, Stephen Covey, and others and they failed me. I do know that GTD worked for me where these others failed. I believe that GTD worked because I continually strived to get "everything" out of my head, even though I knew that I never could squeeze out every last drop. What I take this to mean is to get any commitment that I might possibly forget out of my head. This is pretty much what I do and I have been actualizing my projects much better than I have ever done before.

Thanks, ProjectThis for raising critical issues. I would urge all of us to avoid ad hominem attacks on ProjectThis. I would urge those of us who are interested to address the substantive issues he raises.

[ActionGirl]

I think that ProjectThis is raising some profound issues. I think that at the most fundamental level, ProjectThis is correct. GTD is not merely a productivity system. It embodies a worldview, a psychology, and a philosophy.

The philosophy is one endorsed by many contemporary philosophers. The GTD philosophy provides an answer to the question, "What is the meaning of life?" It states that we create meaning in our life by pursuing goals and projects that we set for ourselves. The meaning of our lives is defined by the projects and endeavors we pursue.

I don't think GTD provides an answer to the question, "What is the meaning of life?" Sure, it is most compatible or relevant to views of human life as purposive or goal oriented, but it does not provide any direction or substantive content in and of itself. GTD could be used in service of just about any vision.

I have no problem with these sorts of questions. They can be rather interesting, but that kind of discussion is much more likely to take off from a focused criticism of a specific concept or claim rather than this scattershot approach.

And if anyone does know the meaning of life, please tell me. ;-)

[kewms]

And if anyone does know the meaning of life, please tell me. ;-)

42.

;-)

Katherine

[TesTeq]

I think that it is impossible to get everything out of my head and into my trusted system.
...
What I take this to mean is to get any commitment that I might possibly forget out of my head. This is pretty much what I do and I have been actualizing my projects much better than I have ever done before.
I think that's the correct interpretation of the psychic RAM dump. If you fully trust your trusted system the psychic RAM dump frees your mind from the anxiety that you may forget about something important.

[tuqqer]

The challenges ProjectThis raises are legitimate ones. ...They are criticisms and challenges levelled against GTD the system and I suggest we welcome them....I think that ProjectThis is raising some profound issues...

This has now become the silliest thread I have ever read on the Internet. It reminds me of a Saturday Night Live skit that showed a Star Trek convention, and William Shatner finally getting up in front of the trekkies, telling them to go get a life.

GTD is a book of ideas on how to organize your life. Use what you can, change it how you want, leave the rest behind.

[dox78]

The root of the reason why this thread was started is the assumption that GTD must be considered a psychological/philosophical life system, and therefore subject to intense scrutiny.

So, instead of debating the merits of the philosophical principles, I'd like to hold up a mirror and ask why exactly GTD must be considered a psychological/philosophical life system.

And I personally believe that the underlying motivation to treat GTD like that is to tie GTD to the other stuff the poster mentioned before. And not to treat it as an independent system of practical productivity. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

[Rainer Burmeister]

I think that ProjectThis is raising some profound issues. I think that at the most fundamental level, ProjectThis is correct. GTD is not merely a productivity system. It embodies a worldview, a psychology, and a philosophy.Interesting thought, indeed!

But if GTD really embodies a worldview, a psychology, and a philosophy, then I must have completely missed it. GTD the way I use it is a method for productivity (efficiency) while doing my work (at the office and at home), but nothing more.

Btw, I think it's okay to write everything down what's on my mind, but what about the things that are not in my mind, although they should be? How do you find the stuff that has already fallen through the cracks several years ago? And what about the consequences of the opportunities that you've missed without noticing?

Rainer

[tjisolutions]

Interesting thought, indeed!

But if GTD really embodies a worldview, a psychology, and a philosophy, then I must have completely missed it. GTD the way I use it is a method for productivity (efficiency) while doing my work (at the office and at home), but nothing more.

Rainer

In my opinion you didn't miss it... If folks want to tie their time up in discussion about whether or not GTD represents a "worldview" "Philosphy" or "Physchology" let em.

Me personally? I will be using as a productivity method that allows me to take that time and get things done... It's my (your) choice how to use it, no matter the Author/Creators intent

[Popeye]

... that is the question.




-Organizations. I don't think the full GTD process can be fully implemented in an organization, and I don't know if that is even desirable. It would be interesting to see objective 3rd party research on the results of attempting this. Also, getting groups to behave and think together in this fashion can lead to GroupThink. I personally would not want everyone to be thinking and acting in the same way in a group or organization, I personally find that somewhat creepy. Also, getting in my head that others should be more GTD-like, is going to make me more stressed. The bottom line is, if I am not their boss, or even if I am, I basically have to learn to accept a lot of 'unacceptable' human behavior that I don't like in people. If my expectations for others behavior are unrealistic, I am going to suffer, with frustration, anger and even intolerance.


One way to reach GOALS in organizations is that ALL of the members in the team/group/your staff know the direction the company/business/office is going. `Cause, if people pulling to all directions, well... were will we strand


-clear Psychic RAM. Does having clear psychic RAM make us more productive? Is it even possible to achieve this state? Is keeping 'everything out of your head' an achievable goal? Does not writing down a call make a person stressed? I don't know if it does. I know many people who are not particularly stressed, and they keep lots of things in their heads. I also know people who write everything down who are a mess. So again, I would think this could benefit from some careful testing, to see if it backfires for certain people. Also, there is often a genetic temperament component with these types of issues.

I live after the motto: If you can think it, ink it...

I say no more, the other GTD:eer know what I´m talking about..

If you can handle all this lists in your head, well... you don´t need GTD.

http://www.davidco.com/tips_tools/tip2.html



-Stress-free productivity. I think that is obviously a catch-phrase, but I am not sure again, that is realistic. Reduced stress? Well, that can be objectively measured. Increased productivity? That also can be measured. But there ain't no such thing as 'stress-free' on this planet. But again, these things can be measured objectively by 3rd parties. Wouldn't it be interesting to see if the GTD process made certain types of people more stressed out? Is getting a Mind Like Water a realistic goal? Or is it another unattainable concept?

a realistic goal is to feel relaxed. The trick is to use a system that you can trust and feel "comfy" with... don´t overwork it, don´t underestimate it.. work the system, and the system will work for you....

-GTD as a global thought process. David mentions that is his mission. But on a personal level, can the GTD methodology be gainfully applied to both our professions, and with our wives and kids? I personally think it is going way too far to push this type of systems thinking into one's intimate relationships, which is why most people 'grimace' when hearing the idea of directing the wife to your Inbox. I don't want to be hit on the head one day with an Inbox.


Is it better to be hit on the head ´cause you missed to do something crusial, and if you hade tried GTD better, you probably wouldn´t get that smack on your head ´cause you didn´t miss that critical thing.

:confused:

Isn´t better that you, ProjectThis! live up to the forumname you have, and do what it says, ProjectThis and soon will you discover that you where wrong all the time... nagging on a system that helps so many of us other...

For the rest of us who know what GTD is all about, keep on GTD:ing and have a good life, be well organized, feel that you are without stress, a peaceful mind and your soul full of joy.


// Popeye

[Busydave]

Hey, here's what we do: let's stop posting to this thread and let it fall off the bottom of the page ... and good riddance.

[moises]

I don't think GTD provides an answer to the question, "What is the meaning of life?" Sure, it is most compatible or relevant to views of human life as purposive or goal oriented, but it does not provide any direction or substantive content in and of itself. GTD could be used in service of just about any vision.

I have no problem with these sorts of questions. They can be rather interesting, but that kind of discussion is much more likely to take off from a focused criticism of a specific concept or claim rather than this scattershot approach.

And if anyone does know the meaning of life, please tell me. ;-)

You are absolutely correct that GTD "does not provide any . . . substantive content." You are right that GTD does not dictate the ends we are to pursue. It provides a method to organize the means to our self-determined ends. If GTD said we ought all to be like Elizabeth Taylor or Thomas Merton or Frank Sinatra or Emma Goldman, we would all be writing posts disputing GTD's paradigm of the good life. Instead, GTD presupposes a more aesthetic conception of the meaning of life, more of a conception of life as expression. We can admire Giotto and Warhol. We can admire lives in which inner dreams and thoughts were successfully realized in the external world.

So GTD is not a stalking horse for Baba Ram Dass or Gandhi. It can be used for infinitely many ends. It represents a contemporary model of human freedom that celebrates lives where projects and enterprises were realized, even when those projects and enterprises are not congruent with our own.

GTD is consistent with contemporary models of human freedom. Most of us prefer to live in a state where we can pursue goals and purposes that we set for our selves. We do not want the state to tell us whether to worship or not, or which god to worship. We don't want the state to tell us which substantive model of human good to follow. We want to live in a state where we make our own individual judgements about what the good is. And we want a productivity system compatible with such political freedoms. GTD is such a productivity system.

[ThomasDerwin]

Actually enjoying this discussion. "Why GTD?" is a fair question and thanks for everyone's answers so far.

Don't know of any academic studies, but I believe that GTD has been tested more than a little in the crucible known as Wall Street. IMHO, if GTD works at the lightning-quick pace of the financial markets, that's proof enough for me.

Even in my far-from-perfect implementation, it adapts well to the imperfections and ambiguities of the real world.

Not paying a $35 late fee because I put the credit card bill in my tickler file is no small benefit.

For me, it's a set of simple yet elegant tools that make day-to-day living better.

As David himself says "there's no wrong way to do GTD". Have fun!

[chinarut]

I am also enjoying this thread and really happy to hear it's come back into the forum. I appreciate the comments of those of you requesting to focus on iistening to ProjectThis!' comments and kudos to all of you who've given up your stance of defense - this thread clearly has come a long way!

There are some great assertions that have come to our attention. ProjectThis! has clearly given many of his points substantial thought. It humbles me when many of you bring reserach citations into the picture and cannot make any claims I've gone this deep into analysis by any means!

That said, I'm happy to see we've surfaced above the nitty gritty implementation and technology talk.

I, too, am inquiring exactly how GTD is deployed at an organizational level. Popeye, you make a great point around alighment. IMHO, it's one of the greatest insights I got out of John Nash's theory as presented by the movie, A Beautiful Mind - we all have to play the same game to win - like it or not! If you haven't seen the special feature where Ron Howard interviews Nash - go watch it!

Now of course, once we play the same game, everyone has their own life ;-)

[justanengineer]

I'm thankful that ProjectThis started this thread. It made me think of some parts of the book I'm not comfortable with.

We all recognize ourselves in - as the book states - "Bright people procrastinate the most". And no risk for bright people to get tangled up in some cult, right? Well, I also thought I was bright, but perhaps I'm not. I hadn't thought about this beeing an intro to a cult at all (I'm not from California).

Immediately one passage in the book spring to mind.

"When relationships and organizations has the collection habit" (page 233-). - Classic us against them. We, the enlightened, think non-adaptors behave unacceptably.

So, is GTD the intro to a "cult", starting with an invitation to GTD connect and then to seminars and then? Who knows? I hope this discussion can continue, so that we all are aware of the possibility. I will still use most of the recommendations in the book.

[TesTeq]

I hope this discussion can continue, so that we all are aware of the possibility. I will still use most of the recommendations in the book.
I hoped that this thread was dead.

[BrianK]

I hoped that this thread was dead.

Me too.
..................

[ProjectThis!]

Yes, whatever you do, don't "challenge this stuff", don't think for yourself, don't question or analyze or use your critical faculties.
Don't ask for objective evidence.
Don't raise questions and expect full disclosure.

Don't question your "coach" and ask them how their bread gets buttered.

Just Believe.

[Max]

ProjectThis!: You sound thirsty. Here have some koolaid. ;)


In all seriousnees, this is an old thread. Everyone has expressed their veiws. Let's move on to the next topic.

[kewms]

Yes, whatever you do, don't "challenge this stuff", don't think for yourself, don't question or analyze or use your critical faculties.
Don't ask for objective evidence.

Oh please. I get objective evidence every time I look at my own productivity metrics. I analyze what works and what doesn't every time I do a weekly review. I don't know or care whether DA is a Buddhist, a Christian, or a three-headed alien with purple spots. The method works for me.

Katherine

PS Oh yeah. I was tracking productivity metrics and doing weekly reviews before I knew GTD existed. That's why I trust them.

[darlakbrown]

So, is GTD the intro to a "cult", starting with an invitation to GTD connect and then to seminars and then? Who knows? I hope this discussion can continue, so that we all are aware of the possibility. I will still use most of the recommendations in the book.

You guys are taking this way too seriously. Give us a break from all these conspiracy/religion/philosophy rantings. You sound like you don't have independent thought yourself when you say such moronic things. It just brings bad energy to all of us who are trying to be more productive and have fun at it.

There are always those trying to bring others down. That's all you're doing. You're probably just jealous that David Allen had a good idea that he wanted to share with other human beings so you sit around and try to think about how you can write something libel against him and his work. It's shameful.

If you don't like it, go do something else.

[justanengineer]

To Darla: You are wrong on all accounts. I wanted to share my own thoughts. If you don't like them, fine. If you don't appreciate me thinking of my own, that's fine too.

To Max: Yes, it's an old thread, and now I also have shared my view.

[Rainer Burmeister]

Okay, I can relate to the fear of being "californicated" by that GTD methodology.

Well, being an European I'd say "Take what you need, and leave the rest."

Rainer

[ceehjay]

Okay, I can relate to the fear of being "californicated" by that GTD methodology.

Well, being an European I'd say "Take what you need, and leave the rest."
Well, being an American, I'd say, "Take what you need, and leave the rest."

:) That happens to be one of my favorite suggestions to clients.

Carolyn

[darlakbrown]

To Darla: You are wrong on all accounts. I wanted to share my own thoughts. If you don't like them, fine. If you don't appreciate me thinking of my own, that's fine too.

To Max: Yes, it's an old thread, and now I also have shared my view.

You have every right to voice your own thoughts. However, I encourage you to seriously consider what you're doing here and what your intentions are.

You are not simply voicing an opinion. You are disparaging someone's reputation and livelihood.

Further, you are doing it within a FREE forum provided by the person you are disparaging.

You have no proof of what you're talking about. It makes me question your intentions and those of the person who started this thread.

It IS shameful that you are using this forum to disparage another person's reputation. It just is. If you don't have a moral or ethical flash go off in your head when you talk about another person that way (with no proof as far as I can tell) then perhaps you should be reminded it is actually illegal to slander another person or company.

You have the right to free speech... use it wisely. Think about how you would feel if someone said this about you, at your work, in front of your peers, your employees, your customers.

Darla

[justanengineer]

It IS shameful that you are using this forum to disparage another person's reputation. It just is. If you don't have a moral or ethical flash go off in your head when you talk about another person that way (with no proof as far as I can tell) then perhaps you should be reminded it is actually illegal to slander another person or company.


I haven't mentioned any person.
I haven't mentioned any company.
I haven't stated that GTD is a cult.

3-4 people have raised concern. Pretending we are operating together is just plain silly.

[justanengineer]

Okay, I can relate to the fear of being "californicated" by that GTD methodology.

Well, being an European I'd say "Take what you need, and leave the rest."


Being an European, that is exactly what I'm doing. ;-)

[TesTeq]

I haven't mentioned any person.
I haven't mentioned any company.
I haven't stated that GTD is a cult.

3-4 people have raised concern. Pretending we are operating together is just plain silly.
It is silly to think that we are silly. But maybe your post was not about the GTD book. Maybe it was about "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" or "Anne of Green Gables"?

[justanengineer]

TesTeq, I was talking about GTD, which I thought was obvious. Actually, that's what I wrote too.

[Popeye]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......