The origins and influences of the GTD philosophy and methodology

[CosmoGTD]

I came here today to quickly go over that thread from the other day, and try to read some of the links posted about all the supposed controversy, and low and behold, it appears to have been deleted! Obviously the thread was getting out of control, with flames, personal attacks, and all the rest of it.
But the proper way to deal with those types of situations on a responsible web forum, is to tell people to calm down, and correct any incorrect information, get it back on topic, and at worst, close the thread. If there are parts of the thread that contain false information, then those parts can be edited, or corrected.
To get into wholesale deletions of threads is simply censorship, and I disapprove of this in the strongest possible terms. To be honest, I can't believe they went and simply deleted the entire thread. We are all adults here, and can think for ourselves, and don't need someone telling us what we can read or think. I have seen this type of thing happen on other web forums, and its a slippery slope, and it gets to the point where all criticism is banned, and the forum just becomes a joke. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought specifically applies to lines of thought that we personally find distasteful, NOT those we already support! It takes great maturity to have a strong tolerance for ambiguity, a flexible mind, and to not try to immediately stamp out thoughts and ideas we personally do not like. So I hope they will return that thread, correct any incorrect statements, so people can simply make up their own minds. Its important to allow freedom of speech, if one wants to maintain any credibility.

That being said, there is one issue that was raised on that thread that interests me greatly. In the front of the GTD book, David Allen thanks a bunch of people, including a certain Russell Bishop. To be honest, I had not really looked at all those names before, as one tends to gloss over things like that. Russell Bishop was a trainer at Lifespring, and was the main person who designed Insight Seminars.
I did not know that David Allen worked for Insight Seminars until now, and I don't have the link for where that information came from anymore, as its been deleted! (grr!) As a matter of fact, I don't know who David Allen has worked for in the past at all. I did a quick search, and I could not find his CV online. If anyone knows where that is posted, please let me know. I don't even know where DA went to university, or what his degrees are. Anyone know where that is posted?

But, I happen to know quite a bit about those types of seminars, and its a fascinating subject. I also have the terrific book 'Cults in our Midst' in my library, (everyone should read that book), and there is a chapter in there which includes a case study on Insight Seminars, as well as lots of entries on Lifespring. As far as I can tell the text in my book is the same as the article which is published online.
http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_Singer/Intruding_into_the_Workplace.html

So David not only worked for Insight Seminars in the past, he also strongly endorsed a recent seminar from 2003 called Insight Super II, which was a fundraiser for Insight Seminars.
http://www.ndh.org/template.php3?ID=431
"I had allowed some limiting behaviors to sneak up on me in the last few years,and Super II allowed me to identify and move past them while installing a magic switch for getting back to myself again whenever I need to. The original Insight Seminar Series was instrumental in helping me create a fantastic life. Super II was the elegant capstone - in spades!”
- David Allen

So no question, the Insight Seminar series has had a large and instrumental influence on DA, and his work. I am interested in seeing how this contributed to the development of GTD.

In the intro to GTD, David says,
"I've worked as a 'management consultant' for the last two decades, alone and in small partnerships. My work has consisted primarily of doing private productivity coaching and conducting seminars based on the methods presented here....This is the background from which I have drawn my experience and examples".

So this is the professional background I am personally interested in, and am going to spend some time looking into over the next while, as I get a chance. Obviously the philosophy and methods of GTD didn't fall out of the sky, and it will be interesting to see just where certain parts of it came from. Part of the problem though, is that it appears that much of what specifically goes on in seminars like Insight is 'secret', in that those who attend are not supposed to tell others what went on. Personally, I think that is simply a sales method, to make people more curious and draw them in. But thankfully, the internet provides a lot of information which can be reviewed.

I have been very curious all along where some of David Allen's 'psychological' ideas inside GTD have come from, as I was not familiar with many of them in the psychological literature. As a matter of fact, some of them appear to contradict what I have seen in the literature. But regardless, this will also be very interesting to explore. I have always felt there were a number of things 'missing' from GTD, and something just didn't feel right in my gut, and we'll see if anything turns up.

For instance, the 'not planning your week' idea is something I have tried, but have dropped. Planning my week and day, and putting important things on my calendar works great for me, and makes me feel relaxed, and makes more more productive.
So it will be interesting to see where the idea came from, that not planning your week out on your calendar, (like Covey), came from.

[TesTeq]

I came here today to quickly go over that thread from the other day, and try to read some of the links posted about all the supposed controversy, and low and behold, it appears to have been deleted! Obviously the thread was getting out of control, with flames, personal attacks, and all the rest of it.
In my opinion the situation was under control. This forum's self-regulation mechanism worked pretty well. ProjectThis! posts became more fact-based.

So why did someone decide to delete the evidence of the maturity of this community? I hope nobody here has something to hide.

[TesTeq]

For instance, the 'not planning your week' idea is something I have tried, but have dropped. Planning my week and day, and putting important things on my calendar works great for me, and makes me feel relaxed, and makes more more productive.
So it will be interesting to see where the idea came from, that not planning your week out on your calendar, (like Covey), came from.
Isn't it replaced by the hard landscape concept?

[mramm]

I came here today to quickly go over that thread from the other day, and try to read some of the links posted about all the supposed controversy, and low and behold, it appears to have been deleted! Obviously the thread was getting out of control, with flames, personal attacks, and all the rest of it.

...

To get into wholesale deletions of threads is simply censorship, and I disapprove of this in the strongest possible terms. To be honest, I can't believe they went and simply deleted the entire thread. We are all adults here, and can think for ourselves, and don't need someone telling us what we can read or think. I have seen this type of thing happen on other web forums, and its a slippery slope, and it gets to the point where all criticism is banned, and the forum just becomes a joke. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought specifically applies to lines of thought that we personally find distasteful, NOT those we already support! It takes great maturity to have a strong tolerance for ambiguity, a flexible mind, and to not try to immediately stamp out thoughts and ideas we personally do not like. So I hope they will return that thread, correct any incorrect statements, so people can simply make up their own minds. Its important to allow freedom of speech, if one wants to maintain any credibility.

I tend to agree with Cosmo. They could have deleted the singular posts that they (@ DavidCo) found offensive, but wholesale deletion of the thread is unacceptable.


But the proper way to deal with those types of situations on a responsible web forum, is to tell people to calm down, and correct any incorrect information, get it back on topic, and at worst, close the thread. If there are parts of the thread that contain false information, then those parts can be edited, or corrected.

David himself posted a short response stating that the thread had gotten a little out of hand and that it should be brought back on topic. I got the feeling that he did not mind the 'investigation' of the background of the GTD principles and such. I felt that it was a well crafted post from the target of ProjectThis' post.

I think that we would all like for CyberScribe (who is the Chief Technology Officer for David Allen Co.) to offer an explanation as to why the post was wholesale deleted, instead of Locked, or singular posts were deleted.

Unfortunately, this incident may limit the time that I spend on these particular forums. If admins are going to drop ENTIRE threads cause they don't like the topic, then I don't want to be part of that community. I will read other GTD forums and interact with those folks to enhance my GTD experience.

Michael

[kewms]

I'm not a moderator here, but I've been one elsewhere. Some posters, when criticized, respond with posts that essentially dare the moderator to take action. I don't know if that was the case here, but behavior like that might explain the deletion of the thread.

Some moderators also believe that locking a thread or deleting individual posts, etc. doesn't actually do much to end a conversation that's getting out of hand. As long as the questionable thread is on the board, the theory goes, people will respond to it.

*shrug* The Internet's a big place, with plenty of room for free speech. I don't see why DA (or any other forum owner) should feel compelled to welcome the kind of personal innuendo that formed the basis of the thread into his own living room.

Katherine

[monkeyjava]

For a forum about productivity, this is all an incredible waste of time. The book and it's system have been a great help to me, I could care less what inspired it. Best of luck to you though.

@computer:
use time normally spent reading GTD forum on a mini-review

[sonia_simone]

I agree with Katherine. This is a forum sponsored by a company. There are many, many forums out there that are not sponsored by DavidCo--they would surely be a more appropriate place for flamefests or innuendoes. (Not that I am especially interested in seeing either of those, anywhere.)

I, for one, don't feel I'm "owed" anything by the forum moderators.

[tjisolutions]

I tend to agree with Cosmo. They could have deleted the singular posts that they (@ DavidCo) found offensive, but wholesale deletion of the thread is unacceptable

Michael

It's David's house... he pays for the bandwidth

This is not censorship anymore than if someone that likes to cuss does so in "my house" in front of my kids and I ask them to leave.

Unacceptable? You pay the bill then you can decide what the rules of the "house" are

We are here because DA has let this be an open forum that one can particpate and add value to - if you had to subscribe would you still come here?

Interesting question isn't it?

[Rogaine Warrior]

If the GTD productivity system works, what really does it matter whether -- in his personal life -- David Allen is a Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Jew, agnostic, atheist or Baal-worshipper?

[gretajean]

As an admin on another message board, we do everything we can to keep drama down. That means that if a thread gets zapped from time to time, so be it. We don't take the time to delete specific posts.

This is David's sandbox, and he didn't seem all that upset when he responded.

[TesTeq]

We are here because DA has let this be an open forum that one can particpate and add value to - if you had to subscribe would you still come here?
Yes. I've met many great people here and I've read many inspiring and thought-provoking posts.

[Gameboy70]

To get into wholesale deletions of threads is simply censorship, and I disapprove of this in the strongest possible terms. To be honest, I can't believe they went and simply deleted the entire thread. We are all adults here, and can think for ourselves, and don't need someone telling us what we can read or think. I have seen this type of thing happen on other web forums, and its a slippery slope, and it gets to the point where all criticism is banned, and the forum just becomes a joke. Freedom of speech and freedom of thought specifically applies to lines of thought that we personally find distasteful, NOT those we already support! It takes great maturity to have a strong tolerance for ambiguity, a flexible mind, and to not try to immediately stamp out thoughts and ideas we personally do not like. So I hope they will return that thread, correct any incorrect statements, so people can simply make up their own minds. Its important to allow freedom of speech, if one wants to maintain any credibility.Freedom of speech protects individuals from state recrimination, not private editorial. On the contrary: the concept of free speech is and should be extended to editors as much as authors. There's no legal or moral obligation for "The Weekly Standard" to print an article by Noam Chomsky any more than there is for "Mother Jones" to print one by Richard Perle. We can take exception to editorial decisions, just as we can disagree with the arguments of certain writers or forum members. However unfair it might be to delete objectionable threads, the practice is not remotely equivalent to a goverment imposing a sentence on one of its citizens for saying, writing, singing or otherwise proclaiming the "wrong" message.

I suspect that the reasons for deleting the thread were more benign than you're implying. When forum members began accusing Sally McGhee of pirating GTD methodogy, David uncharacteristically took time out to post here with a clarification or their previous partnership, which accounted for the significant overlap in their current material. My guess is that if ProjectThis were allowed to continue to post his version of David's background, David would be compelled to spend more time on the forum monitoring for new allegations (libellous or not) and posting rebuttals and qualifications. Considering that his last blog post was basically a polite way of saying that he now had bigger fish to fry, deleting a troublesome thread in the forum would seem the logical, if not politically correct, two-minute action.

Speaking of bigger fish to fry, I now remember why I've drastically curtailed my forum participation. Have a great rest of your life!

[ludlow]

Oh come on all you "DA pays for the bandwidth" people, Cosmo isn't suggesting David Allen Co. has any legal obligation not to just delete threads as they choose. Obviously, DA can replace this entire site with pictures of cute kittens if he likes.

The point is that this forum, by far one of the most valuable ones I've ever participated in, will lose much of its value quickly if the moderators choose to zap whole threads without explanation. So, an explanation would be helpful for the continuing usefulness of the forum - which in turn can surely only benefit the DA Company.

[Brent]

Excellent post, Gameboy70!

I'm honestly a bit amused at the amount of time people are putting into these threads about GTD's origins compared to the threads on actual implementation and day-to-day work.

[Rainer Burmeister]

I'm honestly a bit amused at the amount of time people are putting into these threads about GTD's origins compared to the threads on actual implementation and day-to-day work.Hey, ain't it a cool way to procrastinate?

Rainer

[PDAJunky]

I have watched this topic with some interest but have not allowed any of the discussion to deter me from reading and applying what has made a tremendous difference in my life and ministry as a pastor/leader.

Thanks, again, David, for the super job you're doing helping us stay on top of the workload

[Arduinna]

As others have suggested, coming here to lampoon or rumor-monger about DA is akin to attending a dinner party and holding a critical discussion of the host's culinary and entertaining background with your mouth full of his creme brulee. It's inappropriate, and I have yet to see how it contributes to successful implementation of DA's methods.

Calls for a reposting of the thread might lead people who didn't see it to think they missed something of value. It did call forth an affirmation of GTD's effectiveness from a number of us, something DA himself noted in his response on the thread. Other than that, it was digital lint, innuendo and vacuous speculation about DA's background, framed to suggest negative conclusions about DA and GTD. But it was truly nonsensical. If you'll bear with the metaphor, its logic ran something like this:

"I know that people think it's nice to wear shoes, that shoes are harmless, but I wonder. DA tells us to wear shoes. He says that shoes are good, but he doesn't tell us that wearing shoes can lead to corns and bunions. Nowhere in any of his CDs, tapes and books does he reveal the fact that high heels can get caught in subway grates. He's not up front about the real costs - he doesn't tell us that shoes will need to be polished and repaired - and that they can wear out and may have to be replaced. A person who finds himself with a hole in his sole could easily think it was due to a failing in his own character. DA paints a rosy picture of a world in which we're all wearing shoes, he goes so far as to insinuate that you'll have an advantage in business if you wear them, but he doesn't tell us that we also have to choose the "right style." He implies that shoes have protective powers ("keeps the crap off my feet when I'm walking the dog"), but he doesn't disclose the fact that in Westport in 1973, a horse trod on the foot of a woman wearing a new pair of shoes, and broke her toe. DA seems to be ensnared by a shoe-loving cult that actually promotes the daily use of footwear, with no regard for how that could affect people with weak ankles and addictive personalities. DA says he's worn shoes his whole life and says he 'generally doesn't go anywhere except the shower and the beach without them' (p. 71, Go Forward, Feet First, and Get Stuff Done!), proving he's developed a compulsive need to be shod. I ask you, does this sound like a scientifically sound argument for wearing shoes? Nowhere does he cite a university-based empirical study that bears out his theory that it's a 'good idea' to wear shoes. Until I see such a study, I have to doubt everything he says and wears."

That's a reaction from my memory of the drivel, but I think it was about that profound.

Let's get back to work. The number and month labels are falling off my 43 folders, and I'm starting to regress. . .


Arduinna

[cyberscribe]

Hi Gang,

We delete spam and other stuff that's off topic. Sure, it's a fine line, but that one clearly wasn't about GTD. Glad some folks got to see David's response, which is great, but in the end we decided there wasn't anything there we wanted sitting parked on our company web site indefinitely. Most folks on this forum likewise seemed to agree it was a distraction from the topic and intent of the forum. So away it goes.

Cheers,
Robert

[sonia_simone]

I am now officially in love with Arduinna.

[theoconbrio]

something really, really, funny
Thank you so much! Whatever you didn't get done while you were writing that post? Completely worth it. :grin:

[ThomasDerwin]

Great post, Arduinna. LOL!!!

And thanks to David and company for hosting this friendly online community that shows the true spirit of GTD.

Have fun,
Tom

[mochant]

That's a reaction from my memory of the drivel, but I think it was about that profound.

Let's get back to work. The number and month labels are falling off my 43 folders, and I'm starting to regress. . .

Arduinna:

You are my hero! What a brilliant bit of parody. The perfect cap to my week. :grin:

[tuqqer]

I've never understood the upset over editing on private forums. Stuff that doesn't belong, or is not conducive for the overall purpose of the forum: I say chop away. Delete at will. Magazines and newspapers and parents and schools and people who date all edit. I find the most insufferable situations are those where I'm surrounded by folks who think that every thought that escapes their lips is important.

I'm glad they removed that thread. Arduinna's parody nailed it perfectly, as did Gameboy70s clearheaded response.

[spectecGTD]

I've been away from the forum for a while due to some pressing business issues, and have been missing the practical advice & discussions about how to improve applying the methodology to my day-to-day activities.

Is there any cosmic significance to the fact that I stumbled upon this thread on Apr 1? I think not...