Any Christians who've read GTD? [Archive] - David Allen Company Forums

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 05:06 AM

I have a serious GTD-related question for genuine born-again Christians here.

If you are not a Christian or you consider yourself to be a Christian but do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, please don't answer. Thank you for your understanding.

I just learned about GTD this weekend through websites and blogs. I've considered reading the book but David's use of phrases like "mind like water" and the Zen references have turned me off.

Let me explain why. About 5 years ago my favorite music group played techno music -- almost no words, but many of the words they used were out of the Bible. But they were heavy into Kabalah, that strange demonic mix of Judasim and mysticism. I didn't think much of it because I wasn't being discerning of what I was listening to, but one day God convicted me about it and I stopped listening. IMMEDIATELY my spirit brightened. About a week later I felt about 2x better.

I am utterly convinced that there is a spirit behind everything, influencing you positively or negatively. It has far more to do with mere words, because most of those songs had either one or two generic words (repeated often), a few Bible verses, or no words at all. It was the spirit behind the music that was getting to me.

So when I encountered these Zen-like phrases in reference to GTD immediately my antennas went up. But I still want to read and recommend the book to other people for it's core concepts.

My questions to you:
* In David's GTD book, do you recall reading much spiritual information? Could you please type it in here?
* Do you think there is an eastern religious theme to the book?
* What is your overall impression?

The good news is GTD actually led me to rejoicing. The concepts are indeed religiously-neutral and I rejoiced on Sunday morning for God handing me such wisdom that I could apply to life and stop procrastinating and be effective for His kingdom in ways that bring Him glory and me satisfaction. I rejoiced! It gave me such joy because my TODO items had grown stale and I knew I could be more effective but didn't know how.

And I'd read enough information online to learn how to apply GTD without actually reading the book. But as I said I want to read it for more information AND I want to help other people. I want to host a GTD workshop at work and teach everyone about it and point them to the book, but I couldn't do that right now, my conscience wouldn't let me.

Would *love* your discerning feedback. Thanks.

Again if you are not a Christian or you consider yourself to be a Christian but do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, please don't answer. I only want the input of genuine brothers and sisters right now. Thank you very much for your understanding.

Max

09-20-2006, 05:31 AM

I am a Christian. I have read the book. There is nothing in the book or related works that is remotely religious. He makes comparisons to martial arts and getting things down on paper so your mind is not cluttered with thought. I see nothing that a Christian would find a problem with.

gtderik

09-20-2006, 06:34 AM

CD,
Yes, I am a Christian, but judging by your loaded buzzwords- we probably are not the same flavor of "Christian." there are lots of notes from great wisdom literature in GTD. its inspiring qoutes like that are what I love. and yes the book is influenced by eastern thought and spirituality. I dont take any offense at all by the spiritual claims. it is this specific aspect that I think really draws people to GTD. All in all I dont think that David's spiritual claims (not that I can ever speak for someone else...) are in anyway much different than the "spirituality" of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. We are all spirits that are in some way moving to a greater destiny. this crosses all boundaries of faiths and borders.

CD, a great starting point in understanding Zen principles and how they are alike to Christianity would be a book called Living Buddha, Living Christ written by Thich Nhat Hanh. Hanh was a great friend of Thomas Merton the Trappist Monk. I highly recommend you check out the book.

I would be open to continue talking more about this.
-Erik

TesTeq

09-20-2006, 06:39 AM

If you are not a Christian or you consider yourself to be a Christian but do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, please don't answer.
...
Again if you are not a Christian or you consider yourself to be a Christian but do not have a personal relationship with Jesus, please don't answer. I only want the input of genuine brothers and sisters right now.
I am sure that Jesus was not saying to non-Christians: "please don't answer". If you have a personal relationship with Him, he should have told you so.

I've considered reading the book but David's use of phrases like "mind like water" and the Zen references have turned me off.
What's your problem with "mind like water"?

What other Zen references have you found in the book that you haven't read?

kewms

09-20-2006, 07:04 AM

[Struggles to come up with a reply which would not be deliberately antagonistic. Fails. Writes long post anyway. Thinks better of it and deletes.]

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who has endowed us with wisdom and intellect expects us to forgo their use." -- Galileo Galilei.

Katherine

mcogilvie

09-20-2006, 07:08 AM

I just learned about GTD this weekend through websites and blogs. I've considered reading the book but David's use of phrases like "mind like water" and the Zen references have turned me off.

I recommend the book

Beside Still Waters: Jews, Christians, and the Way of the Buddha (Paperback)
by Linda Klepinger Keenan (Author), Harold Kasimow (Author), Jack Miles (Author), John Keenan (Editor)

where you will find interesting and informative essays by Jews and Christians with a variety of informed perspectives.

But they were heavy into Kabalah, that strange demonic mix of Judasim and mysticism.

Now this is offensive, although I assume out of ignorance and parochialism rather than malice. Kabalah is an authentic branch of Jewish mysticism, and the dominant form for hundreds of years. I know vulgarizations have appeared in popular culture, but even the ones that are scams are no worse than other scams appearing in other religious traditions, e.g., selling "cures" and "blessings". However, to say that Kabalah is demonic is similar to saying that the writings of Saint Teresa of Avila or John of the Cross were demonic. A nice recent introduction to the Zohar, the principal Kaballistic text, was written by the scholar Arthur Green. I strongly recommend the brief, easy book Jewish Spirituality : A Brief Introduction for Christians by Lawrence Kushner.

Max

09-20-2006, 07:21 AM

I am sure that Jesus was not saying to non-Christians: "please don't answer".

Actually there were no Christians during Jesus time therefore no non-Christians. ;)

First, let's not get into a religious debate here. We don't want another thread shut down abruptly.

I also gather that cdevidal is a rather by the book Christian, the question is basically, does GTD conflict with my faith. Valid question although I agree with TesTeq in that I don't see what issue there could be with mind like water.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:24 AM

I am sure that Jesus was not saying to non-Christians: "please don't answer". If you have a personal relationship with Him, he should have told you so.

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Could you please rephrase it?

What's your problem with "mind like water"?

See the post above, I listed why (spirit behind the book).

What other Zen references have you found in the book that you haven't read?

I haven't read the book, which is why I'm asking.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:28 AM

First, let's not get into a religious debate here. We don't want another thread shut down abruptly.

Right. I asked, very politely, twice, that non-Christians please excuse themselves.

If you want to debate Christianity, please go to CARM.org (http://CARM.org/) and click the Forums link on the right-hand side where I engage in debate all the time. You can ask me there.

I also gather that cdevidal is a rather by the book Christian, the question is basically, does GTD conflict with my faith. Valid question although I agree with TesTeq in that I don't see what issue there could be with mind like water.

It's about discernment! GTD itself doesn't conflict with my faith, the question was does the book itself (not the concepts) list too many eastern-religious concepts (higher consciousness, Zen, etc.) to be in conflict with my conscience.

That's all.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:29 AM

[Struggles to come up with a reply which would not be deliberately antagonistic. Fails. Writes long post anyway. Thinks better of it and deletes.]

Thank you, Katherine, for refraining.

If you'd like to debate Christianity, please join in in the CARM.org (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/index.php) forums.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:32 AM

Now this is offensive, although I assume out of ignorance and parochialism rather than malice.

I mean no malice, but I stand by my belief that mysticism of any kind, even mixed with Judaism, is demonic.

If you would like to discuss this further, please join me in the CARM.org (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/index.php) forums.

Thank you.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:32 AM

TesTeq

09-20-2006, 07:36 AM

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Could you please rephrase it?
As far as I know Jesus was ready to talk to everybody - not just to His followers.

First, let's not get into a religious debate here. We don't want another thread shut down abruptly.
You're right.

kewms

09-20-2006, 07:37 AM

Thank you, Katherine, for refraining.

If you'd like to debate Christianity, please join in in the CARM.org (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/index.php) forums.

Christianity (or any other religious belief, including atheism) is a matter of faith, not reason. Faith is, by definition, a very personal thing. So I don't find debate over matters of faith to be a productive use of my time.

Katherine

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:42 AM

Yes, I am a Christian, but judging by your loaded buzzwords- we probably are not the same flavor of "Christian."

I want to hear the opinions of genuinely born-again Christians like Jesus said in John 3. If you are one, please reply. If not, please excuse yourself.

Nothing against you (or ANYONE who isn't born-again), it's just that, from what I can tell from Scripture, those who have not been born again as it says in John 3 don't (can't) think with God's heart and mind, the God of the Bible. So I want to hear from people who are, like David, after God's own heart. The God who wrote the Bible.

Thanks for your understanding.

there are lots of notes from great wisdom literature in GTD. its inspiring qoutes like that are what I love. and yes the book is influenced by eastern thought and spirituality.

That's what I was afraid of.

Could someone please quote those places?

All in all I dont think that David's spiritual claims (not that I can ever speak for someone else...) are in anyway much different than the "spirituality" of the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

The "spirituality" of that book comes from a Mormon so I don't trust it, either.

I am only interested in seeking wisdom that doesn't confront/conflict with the Bible, so while I don't have a problem with the concepts in GTD, I also don't want to be influenced by David's words if he's coming from an eastern religion background.

As I mentioned above, I've had a bad experience with that.

I would be open to continue talking more about this.

Would you please send me an email? Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv. You will get an automatic reply, click the link.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:45 AM

I'm afraid I don't understand your question. Could you please rephrase it?

Now I understand.

I have zero problems talking to non-Christians. This isn't an exclusive "members-only" club.

I'm just not asking your opinions on this subject right now. I know your opinions -- GTD is wonderful and David Allen is a fine guy and what's the big deal about eastern religious ideas anyway if it gets the job done?

I want the opinions of someone who is a born-again Christian.

If you want to discuss this further, please write me an email. Thanks.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 07:47 AM

Christianity (or any other religious belief, including atheism) is a matter of faith, not reason.

Then you might want to browse the Stand To Reason (http://STR.org/) or Ravi Zacharias (http://RZIM.org/) websites for lots of articles that give good reasons to be a Christian.

That is all.

Cuccu

09-20-2006, 08:29 AM

I'm a Christian, and I've found much that is valuable in David Allen's writings.

If you're looking for bits and pieces that won't jive with your world view, you'll find them. I won't quote them, partly because that's a research project not on my projects list (not even in someday/maybe).

I don't think David is espousing any particular religion in any of his books. As far as I can tell, he takes great care not to. GTD is not about any religion.

Is there an eastern religious theme to the book? I wouldn't say so. Yes, David uses terms like "mind like water." I bet it would take me less than an hour to find the biblical equivalent. But again, that's not on my list.

I wish that GTD had been taught in my Christian high school or college. In my opinion, GTD is an essential life tool. Regular use of GTD makes navigating the complexities of life that much easier.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 08:45 AM

Is there an eastern religious theme to the book? I wouldn't say so.

Thank you, that is PRECISELY the kind of answer I'm looking for, though up above gtderik said yes it's definitely there.

Nonetheless you've answering the question directly and I appreciate that.

Because I am getting mixed answers, I would encourage you to make it a research project on your TODO list for the simple reason that we should always read, listen, etc. with discernment like the Bereans in Acts 17. We should test everything and only then hold fast to what is good.

Because I am getting mixed answers, I probably will avoid reading it to avoid a similar incident like I had with the techno music. I've learned plenty from the web and blogs to get me going.

And I will probably not recommend people read his book, but I probably will teach a class on the core concepts.

cdevidal

09-20-2006, 08:46 AM

Once again, if you would like to debate Christianity, PLEASE don't do it here. I am MORE THAN WILLING TO TALK but not right here.

Shoot me a private message. Send me an email. Join me at CARM.org. But not here, please.

Thank you.

Cuccu

09-20-2006, 09:14 AM

I trust that I've distilled much of what is good from David Allen's writings. There is very little that I would dismiss out of hand, not even that state of "perfect readiness" known as "mind like water." (page 10)

But I still use hanging folders, even though he says to "get rid of hanging files if you can." (page 100, if anyone's interested). I suppose I could get rid of them, but I don't want to. They work well for me.

And so I encourage you to do what works for you.

mramm

09-20-2006, 09:32 AM

Because I am getting mixed answers, I probably will avoid reading it to avoid a similar incident like I had with the techno music. I've learned plenty from the web and blogs to get me going.

And I will probably not recommend people read his book, but I probably will teach a class on the core concepts.

Well, that is just wrong. I have been a Christian my whole life. There is no chapter called "You need to worship Budda to be a good GTDer". Are there references to Eastern Philosophy...probably (I am not that familiar with it.)

If you are a strong enough Christian, then you will be able to filter out the references and go about your day. You really NEED to read the book. The equivalent would be being a Christian and not reading the Bible. (I am not saying that GTD is a bible in any sort of way. But you learn how to follow Jesus by reading the Bible.) So to learn the framework of GTD, you need to read GTD.

I applaud you for trying to seal yourself up in a Christian world...but I hate to tell you, that it is not a Christian world out here. Jesus did not come to save the believers, he came to convert the lost. There are many times when he surrounded Himself with unbelievers, and He did ok...right?

Michael

ProjectThis!

09-20-2006, 10:29 AM

Its clear that a number of the core ideas in GTD do originate from David Allen's decades of spiritual experiences in his MSIA religion, which is based on a type of Christianity called the 'Christ Consciousness', which is likely where the "Mind Like Water" idea originated.
http://www.msia.org/msia.qry?ID=19

Its a very astute observation being made about the so-called "Zen-like" references in GTD, and where the origins of those might lie.

There is a thread here at 43 folders about some of these connections.
http://board.43folders.com/showthread.php?t=885

Max

09-20-2006, 10:29 AM

Thanks, Max.

Could you please type in a few quotes?

Quotes of what? I don't have any issues with the book and have nothing to quote. Or do you consider martial arts to be religious?

Max

09-20-2006, 10:40 AM

The "spirituality" of that book comes from a Mormon so I don't trust it, either.

So do you trust your grammar book that was written by Jew or a math book written by a Muslim. Last I heard Mormon were Christians. I find Gandi to be a shining example of how to treat one another. I don't discount him because of his religion.

I thought you were simply asking if GTD was compatible with Christianity. It is. Does it have some eastern undertones? Probably yes. But there is no secret hidden messages.

Enough said. I sense a knock at the door...

mcogilvie

09-20-2006, 10:52 AM

I mean no malice, but I stand by my belief that mysticism of any kind, even mixed with Judaism, is demonic.

If you would like to discuss this further, please join me in the CARM.org (http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/index.php) forums.

Thank you.

That's what I was afraid of.

Could someone please quote those places?

Dear cdevidal,

You believe that any form of mysticism is demonic. You appear to be interested in GTD only because you want someone to provide information to prove that GTD is full of references to Eastern religions. You don't want to read books by Mormons (the founders of Franklin Covey). What I conclude from this is that you are not interested in constructive discussion about GTD, and do not belong here. My impression, which I hope is a true one, is that most of the participants here are willing to listen to men and women of good will, irrespective of their faith. You obviously don't feel that way, and you are happy to ignorantly offend other people. Please go away. I have reported this thread as inappropriate.

wordsofwonder

09-20-2006, 11:04 AM

which is likely where the "Mind Like Water" idea originated.

While one can debate the Christian-ness or lack thereof in the origins of a lot of stuff in David's writing -- a debate which I, not being a Christian of any variety, feel most qualified to stay far away from -- this idea is not one of them. David himself says in his book that the idea of "mind like water" -- that is, reacting proportionally to inputs before returning to a restful state -- came from his study of karate. I similarly feel iminently unqualified to comment on the interaction between Christianity and karate, but that's as may be.

-- Tammy

kewms

09-20-2006, 11:51 AM

And I will probably not recommend people read his book, but I probably will teach a class on the core concepts.

And so you'll be teaching from profound ignorance of what the core concepts even are. Ok....

You can read and use GTD or not, as you like, for whatever reasons seem important to you. But if you're going to teach it, reading the book seems like a prerequisite and an ethical obligation to me.

Katherine

Max

09-20-2006, 12:00 PM

The word zen is not found in GTD (at least not my ebook version).

There are numerous quotes in the book as sidebars. There is one quote from Budda "Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart to give yourself to it."

The following are also quoted (not a complete list mind you) Albert Einstein, Aristotle, Stephen Covey, Peter Drucker, Chinese proverb, Winston Churchill, Mark Twain, Da Vinci, Will Rogers, Greek proverb, Emerson, and my all time favorite writer, Anonymous.

Phil Hair

09-20-2006, 12:06 PM

Hi there.

I am a Christian, born-again, spiritial, etc. I also have studied martial arts (judo and karate), and know a little concerning eastern religions. (I hardly consider myself expert in this last area). I understand your concern about the background philosophy behind GTD, but as for myself, I am quite unworried by it. Here is why:

The use of "mind like water" is simply the metaphor that David Allen uses to describe a state of mind where the person using GTD is not distracted by thoughts of other things which he/she also needs or wants to do. It's a metaphor.

Metaphors were heavily used throughout the Bible. In the New Testament, Paul heavily used sports metaphors in his writings. People of the time would have understood the metaphors and thus gain an understanding of the concepts he was trying to explain. His personal views on the Olympic games (of the times) aren't relevent to Christianity, and are never stated in scripture.

I have not read the book (Getting Things Done) lately, but I recall NO real reference to Eastern religion. The book is refreshingly _without_ philosophy, attempting to be entirely practical. As for David Allen's personal beliefs, I don't believe they are relevant to this issue:

(Quoting Max) "So do you trust your grammar book that was written by Jew or a math book written by a Muslim."

That's my $.02 worth.
--Phil

alsa

09-20-2006, 12:57 PM

It is sort of pointless to bring up religion and politics here! I have read the GTD books, and yes, there are minor semi-religious references, but if one is going to be turned off by something like that, one might as well not live in this world.

I could say I like people like Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and at the same time also like Starbucks, but why would I want to start a war like this here?

My advice? Use GTD if it helps you whether you are Noam Chomsky or Pat Buchanan, the Pope or Ahmadinajad (sp?). At the end of the day, you just have to laugh and have a drink. :)

br4978

09-20-2006, 02:09 PM

What a read (whew!) - not very productive ;-D, but a lot of fun! Nothing like religion and politics to make things interesting.

Now, about that drink...

MB

ludlow

09-20-2006, 03:17 PM

I have nothing to contribute to this hilarious discussion. I'm just posting as a matter of principle because "cdevidal" told me I couldn't.

I find GTD extremely useful in my work as an abortion-providing evolutionary theorist, and it's also great for scheduling my weekly beer-'n'-mysticism session with the guys at the bar.

My work here is done.

kmhlamia

09-20-2006, 03:55 PM

While I understand what you're trying to ask here - does GTD clash with my worldview? - please refrain from insulting other people's religions. It's completely unneccesary and I for one, found it deeply inappropriate in this forum. Kabbalah is older than Christianity and is a genuine and interesting part of Judaism - calling it demonic is deeply offensive. And no, I'm not a Jew or a Kabbalist, although I have studied it slightly because of my interest in world religions.

Oh, and if you didn't want any non-Christian responses then you should have worded your question without recourse to petty and offensive insults.

Kirsty

nancyrezmer

09-20-2006, 11:01 PM

Grace and peace to all of you.

Thank you for the whirlwind of postings in this thread. The conversations were interesting, entertaining, confusing, painful and thought provoking.

It did help me gain a possible understanding of my local Pastor who I respect very much. I emailed him the GTD website link for review. He thought that GTD offered some great stuff, but emailed back that the chuch had too many pressing needs to take the time to "organize" everyone or use GTD methodolgies. However, after reading CDEVIDAL's postings, maybe he was more concerned that the membership might blast him for using a secular program or sources that used non-bibical quotes. I hadn't thought of this angle. Church members can sometimes get real nasty and stir up unneccessary dust devils. I'm sure he has received plenty of welts in the line of duty.

The pastor's response was disappointing, but I'm okay about it. However, it is hard to listen to weekly sermons about the importance of focusing and "GETTING THINGS DONE." Perhaps the Pastor missed the point of GTD because he read expressions like "Mind Like Water" on the website. I had wanted to share some "Good News" about ways to approach raising 23 million dollars for a building fund in the next three years. Oh well...I tried.

CDEVIDAL makes a good point about understanding how important it is to be discerning and take responsibility for understanding materials based on the source /context /authority of the information spoken or written. I appreciate the insight, but not DCEVIDAL's delivery.

My recommendation for CDEVIDAL is to use the Bible as the only source of information for a teaching program. It's obvious that CDVEVIDAL experiences great stress from secular materials. However, even interpretations of Bible passages can be misguided and full of scripture twisting. Discernment is a tough skill to learn.

CDEVIDAL's postings came off as grandstanding and flamed several people and their belief systems. An apology to David Allen and GTD Connect would be appropriate. If CDEVEIDAL continues to flame and be a loose canon, then I would appreciate this user being blocked from the discussions. I'm sure Jesus would be cringing by now if he belonged to GTD Connect. As you can probably guess, I am ...

Cringing in Wisconsin,

Nancy

Dave John

09-21-2006, 02:06 AM

GTD is like a “skin” over your life’s workflow. No matter what you are doing, there is always a desired outcome and an appropriate next action to get to that outcome.

Some religions may be uncomfortable about their members achieving clarity of thought. However, religions that are based on solid moral principles will have nothing to fear.

If you goal in life is to achieve spiritual elation, what are you going to do next on that path? If your goal in life is to be a selfless servant to the poor … then you’ll probably have quite a lot of projects and next actions! If your religion says that mankind is steeped in sin, and that each one of us must seek forgiveness …. what are you going to do next on your path to salvation?

50,000 foot thinking is easy when you are committed to a religious belief. 40,000, 30,000 and 20,000 foot projects should also follow quite easily. Actually, a lot of these will be prescribed by your religion. In fact, it looks like GTD can only make you better at your religion!

(Don’t forget, Zen is not a religion, it is a mental discipline to help you think and act clearly).

David

toms73

09-21-2006, 03:24 AM

Now I know why somebody said, "never discuss politics, sex or religion." I'm going back to "mind like water."

Max

09-21-2006, 04:57 AM

An apology to David Allen and GTD Connect would be appropriate.

Actually, this thread is in the public forum not GTD Connect.

Cikub

09-21-2006, 11:48 PM

Thanks, everyone for an interesting read and for keeping the dial on your flame-throwers to the "warm" setting. I imagine for those with a "mind [truely] like water", the potentially emotional post that started this thread barely caused a ripple.

Humans are *so* facinating with their diverse of perspectives!

C

Mark Jantzen

09-22-2006, 07:13 AM

Because I am getting mixed answers, I would encourage you to make it a research project on your TODO list ...

Because I am getting mixed answers, I probably will avoid reading it ...

I'm struggling with the objection to reading the book and discover for yourself. You obviously have a strong faith and I would not expect it to waiver even in the presence of writings you don't agree with.

I personally don't see religion in the book but could see it as a tool to help practice one's faith - e.g. organize study, reading, etc. in context with other day-to-day things like paying bills, etc.

My humble two cents,
Mark

BigStory

09-22-2006, 11:57 PM

David's blog is now closed, but I can tell you that the staff who work for DesiringGOD.org (John Piper) attended David's seminar in Minnesota last year, based a blog entry he made. See: www.desiringgod.org

This is a solid, extremely thoughtful, evangelical Christian organization, very familiar with the differences between Christianity and other faiths, and very clear about their own beliefs. Perhaps you could contact them about their own experience.

FWIW,
Gordon

GTDWorks

09-23-2006, 05:51 AM

I didn't take the time to read all the postings but what I read was interesting.

I am an "evangelical" pastor who has found great help in David's methodologies. My ministry is far stronger and more effecrtive because of the application of the principles and practices delineated in GTD, Ready for Anything, and the many articles, videos, and poscasts I've enjoyed here.

I read alot. Some things I read I agree with and other things I read I say, "Well, that's not for me" or "That doesn't fit into my worldview, but I can learn something from it." I engage my brain regularly so that I can get the most out of my studies as possible

I am a discerning reader and student. I don't avoid reading something because it doesn't line up exactly with my opinion. I believe all truth is God's truth and that I have much to learn from everyone I encounter. I feel enriched by the experiences I've had with people of other faiths and opinions. I give them respect and I expect them to offer the same to be. I'm rarely disappointed.

My interactions with the staff at DavidCo (and with David himself) has been 100% positive and always educational. We have never discussed our religious beliefs with one another. I don't force my meaningful beliefs on them nor do they try to convert me to theirs (I don't even know what they believe!).

I simply enjoy the results of GTD and the way it helps me be a better manager of the responsibilities I have in my busy world.

We've got a great group of GTDers here and I always enjoy learning from you all. Thanks, everyone!

darlakbrown

09-23-2006, 09:54 AM

What a wonderful post. Well said and what a wonderful philosophy about respecting other's beliefs (as well as privacy). I appreciate your openness to learning and respecting other's views.

Darla

I didn't take the time to read all the postings but what I read was interesting.

I am an "evangelical" pastor who has found great help in David's methodologies. My ministry is far stronger and more effecrtive because of the application of the principles and practices delineated in GTD, Ready for Anything, and the many articles, videos, and poscasts I've enjoyed here.

I read alot. Some things I read I agree with and other things I read I say, "Well, that's not for me" or "That doesn't fit into my worldview, but I can learn something from it." I engage my brain regularly so that I can get the most out of my studies as possible

I am a discerning reader and student. I don't avoid reading something because it doesn't line up exactly with my opinion. I believe all truth is God's truth and that I have much to learn from everyone I encounter. I feel enriched by the experiences I've had with people of other faiths and opinions. I give them respect and I expect them to offer the same to be. I'm rarely disappointed.

My interactions with the staff at DavidCo (and with David himself) has been 100% positive and always educational. We have never discussed our religious beliefs with one another. I don't force my meaningful beliefs on them nor do they try to convert me to theirs (I don't even know what they believe!).

I simply enjoy the results of GTD and the way it helps me be a better manager of the responsibilities I have in my busy world.

We've got a great group of GTDers here and I always enjoy learning from you all. Thanks, everyone!

gretajean

09-23-2006, 11:28 AM

I can't imagine teaching a course on a subject that one has not studied or read, no matter what it is. If it bothers you that much, have someone else teach the class.

Timbo22

10-09-2006, 06:18 AM

This is my first post to a forum, but felt like I should respond. I am the Executive Pastor of a very large Chrisitan Church in California. After reading GTD and becoming familiar with the process, we have encouraged our entire staff, about 85 folks to read the book. We have even agreed to purchase the book for them if they will comit to working the process. Having said that I do not see any confict between the book and my faith. If anything it has give me more time and focus on other itmes to allow me to spend more time with God, and the practices and disciplines of my faith.

madalu

10-16-2006, 05:37 AM

I'm struggling with the objection to reading the book and discover for yourself. You obviously have a strong faith and I would not expect it to waiver even in the presence of writings you don't agree with.

I'm not sure that calling mysticism "demonic" is a sign of a strong faith. Nor is the rude attempt to exclude other voices from the conversation. Nor is the original post's almost pathological preoccupation with pollution by "other" faiths and experiences. Nor is the need to believe that one is absolutely correct and all others are absolutely wrong.

A strong faith rests firm in what it believes and thus is able to engage charitably and humbly with other beliefs, views, and perspectives. It does not need to insist anxiously that other beliefs are absolutely wrong, demonic, or perverse. A strong faith is willing to be corrected. It even recognizes that it may be quite wrong about God and the nature of reality--since it cares above all for God and reality, not itself or its own correctness.

A weak faith is willing to sacrifice even God for the sake of its own correctness. It puts itself in the place of God.

pjstadig

01-18-2007, 01:05 PM

I'm not sure if anyone will end up reading this, or if it'll get lost down at the end of a long thread, but here's my perspective.

I too was initially wary when I saw references to Zen and "mind like water", however I do not have the same (please don't take offense to this) superstitious perspective. I think you are seeing meat sacrificed to idols and deciding to throw it out. I, on the other hand, see it as edible meat. If you dismiss GTD because of a few references to Zen, then you are missing out. Having read the whole thing I found that most of the book (nearly 90%) is purely and simply practical tips...best practices. Even the "mind like water" references in the book I think are good practical advise. I may not agree with a mystical presupposition to such statements, but I can agree that the principles in having a "mind like water" are not inherently unbiblical.

My main caution with the book is not to look at it as a magical talisment that can make me productive and happy (I think someone coming from a non-Christian perspective would say the same thing), but instead to see it as practical advice that can be useful when used appropriately. Being a Reformed Christian I believe in in-born and total (in extent) depravity, and that the root of my procrastination is sin. I do not believe that any system or process can fix that. However, again, I think there is acknowledgement from non-Christians as well that GTD does not fix procrastination, and anyone would be simple minded to think so.

A good reference that deals with procrastination from a Christian perspective is Procrastination: First Steps to Change by Walter Henegar from Grace Books International (http://www.gbibooks.com/final.asp?id=42960).

If you can see GTD through the lens of biblical understanding, then it is definitely worth the read.

Paul

Jeff Kelley

01-19-2007, 12:00 AM

The saddest thing about CD's views is that he closes himself off to so much good information because there MAY be a couple of stray statements that MAY be linked to something that MAY not coincide with his born-again Christian beliefs. Thankfully there are more Christians that have open minds like GTDWorks than "Christians" like CD.

-Jeff

LJM

01-19-2007, 05:30 AM

The idea of choosing not to read something because it might say something you disagree with is, frankly, antitical to everythihg I beleive in and feel to be important. It's just incomprehensible to me.

But I would like to understand the thought process more, even though I disagree with it. Can anyone point me to an explaination of how someone can claim to beleive something very strongly, and yet be scared that one stray contrary opinion might shatter that faith and should thus be avoided at all costs? Or am I misunderstanding the inclination entirely?

kewms

01-19-2007, 05:51 AM

As I understand it, there are two reasons to avoid "proscribed" reading materials.

The first is that humans are weak, and the Devil is always looking for ways to nudge humans away from the path of righteousness. The more "nudges" you allow into your life, the more likely you are to fall. Avoid temptation, and you don't have to resist it.

The second is that buying books with evil ideas supports the disseminators of those ideas, and therefore funds efforts to nudge one's fellow humans (who are, because they are human, weak) off the path.

There's also a third, less noble reason: if a religious leader limits his followers' exposure to other ideas, he limits the potential challenges to his own authority. This third reason is why the first translators of the Bible into languages other than Latin were excommunicated, and part of why the Protestant Reformation happened. The heirs of the Reformation somehow fail to see the irony in their actions...

Personally, I like Galileo's view, "I do not feel compelled to believe that the same God who has endowed us with reason and intellect expects us to forgo their use."

Katherine

Jeff Kelley

01-19-2007, 06:06 AM

Rainer Burmeister

01-19-2007, 09:33 AM

I find it strange as well. CD sounds like a fervent believer but this attitude gives the impression that his faith is hanging on by a thread.
File it under "Compulsive search for the end of the tunnel instead of shining your own light".

Rainer

darlakbrown

01-19-2007, 10:44 AM

How about this theory:

Ignorance is bliss.

If a person doesn't open themselves to new knowledge or other view points, they remain blissfully ignorant. This is fine and is, of course, any person's privilege and right. This is only their right as long as they don't hurt others due to their ignorance and/or arrogance.

That's my 2cents.

LJM

01-19-2007, 12:57 PM

Personally, I like Galileo's view, "I do not feel compelled to believe that the same God who has endowed us with reason and intellect expects us to forgo their use."

(Or in my Grandmother's words: "God gave you brains; why don't you use them?!" :D )

Katherine, you're "reason three" was obvious to me, but I doubted that would be the stated reson for the prohibition. Thank you for reasons one and two. :)

It still doesn't make sense to me when I try to follow the train of logic. But this comes from a major difference of opinion in where reason and logic should come into helping determine one's world view. I believe reason to be a fundamental (though not exclusive) aspect of how one relates to reality and determines what is true. That makes it very hard for me, and others who see reason to be crucial, to relate to or comprehend people and people who have rejected reason as a reliable tool for assessing reality-- and I'm sure we're equally incomprehensible to them.

kewms

01-19-2007, 01:33 PM

I believe reason to be a fundamental (though not exclusive) aspect of how one relates to reality and determines what is true. That makes it very hard for me, and others who see reason to be crucial, to relate to or comprehend people and people who have rejected reason as a reliable tool for assessing reality-- and I'm sure we're equally incomprehensible to them.

But they'll pray for us anyway...

The problem is that reason explains how, but not why. In particular, knowing the mechanistic reasons behind things like war, disease, and plain old bad luck isn't all that comforting to those suffering from their effects (or to those who are relieved to have avoided their effects). Humans want to believe that they matter, and religion is one of the tools they use to support that belief.

Katherine

bookimdano

01-20-2007, 07:10 PM

Since religion is such a touchy subject, I would suggest withholding comments until CD gives us specific quotes from the book that he or she objects to.

cpfuller

01-20-2007, 08:35 PM

I have been a Christian for over 30 years. Read the book and trust the Holy Spirit to guide you. I found nothing in the book to be of a religious nature. It has in fact helped me to find more time for Bible Study.

Charles

cdevidal

01-21-2007, 11:38 AM

Since religion is such a touchy subject, I would suggest withholding comments until CD gives us specific quotes from the book that he or she objects to.

In the first post, I said it was the "mind like water" and Zen references that caused my "spiritual antennas" to go up. Still haven't read the book, for that very reason. Cannot recommend it to anyone, for the same reason.

In that first post I also specifically requested that only born-again Christians reply. Sadly, my wishes were not respected.

If you want to debate religion, let's talk! Please either email me (Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv) or join me in a public debate on another message board such as OpenAirOutreach.Proboards52.com (http://OpenAirOutreach.Proboards52.com/).

I'd be more than happy, exuberantly happy, abundantly happy to talk to anyone and everyone! But somewhere else, not on this message board.

Thanks for your understanding.

mcogilvie

01-21-2007, 12:54 PM

Fortunately for everyone, cd is a polite person. However, discussion with him is likely to prove frustrating. If you visit his web site

You're a good person? Yeah, right!
Prove it: TenThousandDollarOffer.com

you find a supposed offer of $10,000 if you pass a test. After 10 "right" answers, you get the response:

"Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift."

I think this speaks for itself, and I suggest we return this thread to its dormant status asap.

cdevidal

01-21-2007, 01:49 PM

Fortunately for everyone, cd is a polite person. However, discussion with him is likely to prove frustrating. If you visit his web site

Not my web site, and it is a legitimate offer. If you can prove you have kept the Ten Commandments, you get $10,000. He's asked his lawyers to validate it, and it's a binding contract.

Fortunately for Ray, no one has. His money is as safe as if it were in Fort Knox.

You attacked my signature (and indirectly, my personal character) without rationally discussing the issue at hand. Minus five points :-D

Seriously, if you're not a born-again Christian, please excuse yourself. Thanks for understanding.

If however you would like to discuss the website I put into my signature, please email me: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

unstuffed

01-22-2007, 02:34 AM

A rather fascinating and offbeat thread. Rather than repeat what many people have already said (and far better than I could), I'll add a couple of other thoughts.

Katherine said:

There's also a third, less noble reason: if a religious leader limits his followers' exposure to other ideas, he limits the potential challenges to his own authority.

I believe that's also the reason for the Council of Nicaea in 322, when Church leaders decided which books would go into the official bible, and which would be excluded. From this administrative decision comes the New Testament we know today.

If you can prove you have kept the Ten Commandments, you get $10,000. He's asked his lawyers to validate it, and it's a binding contract.

It may be a binding contract, but it's a foolish one, because there is no way to prove such a negative. Think about it: how would someone go about proving that they've never lied, for example? It's not possible. No-one is under the sort of surveillance necessary to prove such a thing to a legal standard.

So discount that claim: it's a game only.

In the first post, I said it was the "mind like water" and Zen references that caused my "spiritual antennas" to go up.

I'd describe Zen as philosophy, not religion. And as someone else pointed out, 'mind like water' is a metaphor, and David says so clearly in the book. Nothing about spirituality, unless you consider that calming yourself, in order to focus your energies on what you are doing, is spiritual.

In that first post I also specifically requested that only born-again Christians reply.

Well, as the Rolling Stones told us, you can't always get what you want. But if you try some time, you just might find, that you get what you need.

My opinion on your question is this: there's nothing in GTD that could upset any true Christian. It's grounded very strongly in the practical, and illustrated by means of quotes from a variety of sources. Here's two I found (on page 72), by the simple expedient of opening the book at random:

Nothing is more dangerous than an idea when it is the only one you have. - Emile Chartier
and
Only he who handles his ideas lightly is master of his ideas, and only he who is master of his ideas is not enslaved by them. - Lin Yutang

If your faith is troubled by those, or quotes like those, then best you don't read the book. But then, if you don't read the book, it's best you don't use the system or attempt to teach it.

Sadly, my wishes were not respected.

Well, it is a free forum. FYI, you'd probably consider me a godless heathen, and therefore disregard all I've said. I, OTOH, consider myself a thoughtful and tolerant person, and feel that the validity of my opinions and/or my reasoning are not dependent on whether or not I subscribe to any particular belief system.

Finally, I'd say that if your faith is threatened by mere exposure to other ideas, then it's a very shaky faith indeed. Most of the people I know are able to read something, think about it, then accept or reject it: they don't deny themselves the possibility of learning. And we learn from everything we encounter, the good and the bad, so if you're limiting your encounters, you're learning less.

packmatthews

01-24-2007, 06:25 AM

Okay, I bit the bait and now this thread is part of my "stuff". So since this is proof of how wiley Satan is at luring me off my game, I've pulled out my GTD bible and found that my personal relationship with David Allen has shown me the way. He whispered in my ear the following questions:
"What is it?"
Well David, It's a thread on a GTD site that's wandered down a quite fascinating rabbit hole and allowed me to avoid looking at my Next Actions or get to the weekly review I've been avoiding.
Then David smote my mote-filled eyes with the next question just as I was stooping to pick up a stone,
"Is it actionable?"
And low, I was convicted as I wrestled with the spirit of GTD beside the water cooler amongst my fellow lost souls. As I looked deep into my heart I could not tell a lie, (oops, wrong myth) and did doth answer him saying . . . Noooooooooooo!!!!!
And as the evil angel of procrastination tried once again to launch it's talons in my sexually suggestive breast I was saved yet again by that beam of salvation as I heard my savior ask,
"Then how do you plan to organize it, Trash, Reference, or Someday/Maybe?"
And I chose Trash,
no Someday Maybe,
no Trash,
No S/M. Hey, that abbreviation, "S/M" looks a little too much like S & M, maybe I should avoid that category altogether.

darlakbrown

01-24-2007, 07:13 AM

lol! Very entertaining!

:-)

Max

01-24-2007, 09:08 AM

Hey, that abbreviation, "S/M" looks a little too much like S & M, maybe I should avoid that category altogether.

That explains a lot. I showed my wife the number of projects I had including 69 in the S/M category. She gave me a disgusting look and will no longer sleep in the same room as me.
;) ;)

Dave John

01-24-2007, 10:35 AM

"You're a good person? Yeah, right!
Prove it: TenThousandDollarOffer.com "

??????

Christianity reduced to a $10,000 bet?

Thanks all the same, but if that’s “born again” I’ll take the old kind any day.

Dave

Gameboy70

01-24-2007, 11:44 AM

Just for fun, and because I could use the money, I decided to take up the $10K Offer, answering all 10 questions about my fidelity to the Commandments in the affirmative. Rubbing my hands together with dreams of avarice before clicking on the final Submit button, I suddenly toggled over to the Palm Desktop to add "Hire accountant" to my project list. Returning to TenThousandDollarOffer.com, I submitted my final answer and got this:
Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift.Looks like the Ninth Commandment is one of Ray's open loops.

kewms

01-24-2007, 12:59 PM

Looks like the Ninth Commandment is one of Ray's open loops.

Actually, I think Ray needs to go back and read the rest of Romans 3. I'm no theologian, but, in context, I don't think Romans 3:11 (which actually quotes Psalms) says what he claims it says. Rather, I think it warns against exactly the sort of legalistic hairsplitting in which he's indulging.

But I'm not a theologian and this isn't a theological forum, so I'll stop now.

Katherine

ext555

01-24-2007, 01:56 PM

I would agree with Katherine , and I am an ordained minister.
That is not what that verse means at all, and the fact that someone "supposedly " is wiling to pay money for keeping the 10 commandments and then twists scripture to avoid doing so , makes me ill ..

I seek after God daily , and I'm a member of this forum .
I see no issue with Christians practicing GTD , it's a very big part of our church staff management , and the main reason we no longer have 3 hr mtgs to discuss one issue anymore ..

Sure David mentions eastern religious terms etc.. that doesn't mean I have to practice his beliefs [whatever they may be] anymore than he has to practice mine .

rachel134

01-24-2007, 02:16 PM

"I want to host a GTD workshop at work and teach everyone about it "

As a teacher, I am appalled that anyone would teach something without having read the source material. I hope that, in the interest of honesty, and the spirit of the 9th commandment, CD will announce at the beginning of the workshop that s/he has not read Getting Things Done and is basing the class on what other people have written about it.

Rachel

GTDWorks

01-24-2007, 04:38 PM

I was serving in a judicatory role on Saturday morning helping an independent church determine whether or not they wanted to partner with our denomination.

I used the Natural Planning Model and found it so cool to get to the end of the meeting and hear myself ask, in fine GTD fashion, "Okay, folks,what's the Next Action?" :D

bookimdano

01-24-2007, 11:13 PM

"In the first post, I said it was the "mind like water" and Zen references that caused my "spiritual antennas" to go up. Still haven't read the book, for that very reason."

I would say that if the phrase "mind like water" causes you to stumble then follow your conscience and don't read the book. Otherwise you would be sinning. That is the principle behind Romans 14:23

Mature Christians on the other hand can read GTD and benefit greatly from it. They have the discernment to retain beneficial concepts and disregard those that may not be biblical (although I am not aware of any unbiblical concepts in the book).

I would suggest that everybody following this thread read all of Romans 14. Here are a few select verses:

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" - Romans 14:1-4

MiataPops

01-26-2007, 05:38 PM

"Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" - Romans 14:1-4

Thank you, bookimdano. I read all of these posts and debated whether to post or not. Your post convinced me to do so.

I am almost 59 years old. The first time I went to church, I was 6 days old. My father was a (to give it a label) fundamentalist minister, and I've had a "personal relationship" with Jesus Christ since I was a youth by confessing my sins with my mouth, believing in the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus by his death and resurrection, and living under the grace that Christ bought with his blood. But, the cares of life often caused me, like Peter, to look at the raging sea instead of Jesus who was walking on the water.

cdevidal, GTD has not only helped me with the Runway, 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 feet levels, which, to me, are "temporial" in nature because they are related to "things" - trying to make a living and raise a family; but, GTD helped me to realize the 40,000 and 50,000 feet levels were being sacrificed in my life. GTD helped me to focus on the higher levels of my life. I now read my Bible everyday, I pray for others everyday, I memorized the names books of the Bible, I attend church more faithfully, I tithe on the gross amount of my salary, I am more conscience of the need to display a "Christ-like" spirit in my attitude and dealings with others, I memorize scripture, and I am bolder in my witness of Christ in my life. Having a "mind like water" enables me to focus on lasting things, not just those things I can do in 2 minutes or less.

As to the Ten Commandments bet, I thought Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law when he gave His life on the Cross for the sins of mankind because no man could keep the Law. That was the whole point. But, praise God, I now can say:

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I quoted a lot of scriptures cdevidal, but, since this post is for "Christians only", I'm sure you won't mind.

Rainer Burmeister

01-27-2007, 01:48 AM

Thanks for your interesting post, MiataPops.

As for me I would never trust a religious system in which the deity (god) at first does the mistake of postulating a law that cannot be fulfilled or obeyed , and then has to sacrifice his own child in order to balance this failure.

Bad cosmic management, indeed.

Rainer

MiataPops

01-27-2007, 05:18 AM

I don't know the answer to your question, I don't think anyone does. But, the only decision I have to make is the choice to believe or not. That's the decision everyone faces.

I admit there is alot I don't understand about "religion". This morning, I read it in Exodus about Moses and his burning bush experience where G_d asked him to go to Eqypt and lead his children out of bondage. So, Moses put his wife and son on a donkey and headed for Eqypt. The very next verse describes that Moses was lodging in an inn and G_d became angry and wanted to kill him! WHAT'S UP WID DAT!? I don't understand.

What I do understand is that I have peace. What I do understand is that prayers are answered. What I do understand is that my family is protected. What I do understand is all of my physical needs are meet according to His riches in glory. What I do understand is that I have a blessed hope of His soon coming and eternal life in splendor.

But, there is still much that I don't understand. For that, I have faith.

May you have a wonderful day today, Rainer. Go in peace.

Pops

cdevidal

01-27-2007, 05:22 AM

In an age of supposed "religious tolerance" I find it ironic that I have been consistently persecuted and critisized for simply stating my beliefs. "Religious tolerance." Indeed. For everyone but Christians, I guess.

I can think of nothing I have to apologize for. I said that I would not have said if Jesus were standing right next to me, so I have nothing to apologize for. If memory serves correctly I didn't attack any one of you. I simply stated my beliefs and was critisized.

Actually, it's quite allright that you said all those nasty things :D Check this out:
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. (Hey, that's me! I spoke on Jesus' account and people reviled me.) Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Matthew 5:11,12 ESV)

Hallelujah! How cool! I can't wait for a prophet's reward! :mrgreen:

However, I urge you to stop your persecution of an innocent man, not on my behalf but for your own good. God promises terrible things to those who persecute the innocent, particularly those who speak on His behalf.

Meanwhile, I'll be praying for your safety, health, financial blessing and most importantly, your salvation.

I'm done with this thread. The answers from born-again Christians gave me enough information. You can criticize me freely now because I won't be reading any more of this thread. However, recognize that the more you persecute me, the greater my reward and the more your wrath.

I urge you, ask God to forgive you! Christ made forgiveness possible! That wrath can be removed! It's not too late!

Remember, I'm not closing off religious discussion. Please send me a private message or email: Chris (AT) deVidal (DOT) tv.

Praying for your safety, health, financial blessing, and most importantly your salvation!

MiataPops

01-27-2007, 05:47 AM

I got a private mail from cdevidal. I won't reveal the contents because it is private. But, his salutation was "You're a good person? Yeah, right! Prove it: TenThousandDollarOffer.com", which I believe can be judged as public.

So, I took the test. I broke every commandment. During my life, I have not kept even one of the Ten Commandments. Here are my results from the website:

"Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift."

So, I took the test again, and, this time, I admit, I lied (for purely scientific, investigatory reasons, for which I immediately repented.) My results:

"Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11, italics added). So no one has kept that Commandment. Not one. So one of you is lying—either you or God, and the Scriptures say that it’s "impossible" for God to lie (see Hebrews 6:18). So, now you have broken the Ninth Commandment by lying about keeping the First Commandment. So you have missed out on the $10,000 (sorry about that), but please stay with this—for a free gift."

I don't think that TenCommandments.com is making a legitimate offer as stated on its website. It does not offer, as stated, an opportunity to present my case if, indeed, I have kept all of the Commandments. Does that constitute fraud?

This is all I am going to post on this topic. Obviously, cdevidal, comes from a legalistic point-of-view that is not easily changed. I stand on the side of Grace and rest in the work of Jesus Christ, not in my own puny efforts.

As Christ said in Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

As to the original question concerning if a Christian can use GTD without comprimizing their faith. The answer is yes. As a GTD | Connect member, I had the occasion to spend some time with David Allen along with five other members after the GTD | The RoadMap seminar in Dallas this week. I asked David his views on spirituality. I won't tell you his answer because that is a private conversation, and only David has a right to express his viewpoint. But, I can tell you, that as a Christian, I am very comfortable with his answer, and I have NO PROBLEM using GTD to improve the quality of my life - both in the here-and-now and in the world to come.

Go with G_d and go in peace.

MiataPops

cdevidal

01-27-2007, 06:03 AM

I can hear the objections now: "You're a religious intolerant!" If you say so, but two wrongs don't make a right ;)

Done.

br4978

01-27-2007, 08:03 AM

I'm intrigued by the perception that a verbal challenge or healthy debate constitutes 'persecution', cdevidal. Reaching out to good ol' Websters, I found persecution defined as

"1 : to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief"

I guess suffering is in the perception of the recipient, but I find claims of religious persecution to often be a gross mis-characterization of the actual experience. Be careful not to let your legitimate defense of your faith drive you from conviction to a state of paranoia, if only to allow you to avoid any interference with your own focus.

Best,

Diane

01-27-2007, 01:02 PM

Please don't pray for "financial blessings" for me. I don't believe it's important to God how much money I have.

tominperu

01-27-2007, 02:35 PM

I guess suffering is in the perception of the recipient.
Best,

I think we should give cdevidal a break. It's very easy to cause hurt and offense on a forum without actually wanting to, especially when one doesn't know the background of the posters and the intent and origins of their words.

Tom

Gameboy70

01-28-2007, 07:17 AM

I agree that we should close the thread, but cdevidal should give us a break. He opened the thread with a provocative "question" then immediately attempted to foreclose any skepticism of his integrity by asking the skeptical not to reply. Very much like a parent who slaps a child then feigns indignation at the child's subsequent crying.

I'm calling BS on the whole line of questioning, the motivation behind it, and the distraction this thread represents to serious inquiry. I don't pretend be "tolerant" of nonsense, even when it disingenuously passes itself for Christianity.

LJM

01-29-2007, 05:12 PM

My understanding of Nettiquete has always been that it is poor form to post something to a public discussion forum and then append "Please, only people who are/do/beleive X answer"-- and I feel this way regardless of whether I am, do, or beleive whatever "X" is.

Once I post something to a public discussion forum, just as I am giving up say over who can read what I've written, I've also given up say over who can respond to it.

If he genuinely wanted to discuss the issue only with people who subscribe to his flavor of Chrsitanity, a better way of handling it would have been to say "If there are any {whatever he calls his denomenation/sect/etc} Christians out there who are willing to discuss their experiences with, or opinion of, GTD, please send an e-mail/pm", and then let the thread go where it will.

But to be fair, that is a minor enough violation of ettiquite that I can't claim to never have done anything that would be considered in just as poor form.

packmatthews

02-01-2007, 03:32 AM

I see each of these threads as ongoing meetings with permanent minutes. I would hate to see it closed down. I think it's highly possible to address the issues involved without getting personal. So why are we having this meeting and why is it so hard for me to stop sticking my head in on this one? Could it be as MiataPops points out that the GTD process is as relavent to 50,000 foot questions as the runway? I would like to suggest that conflict over religious issues represent 50,000 (why am I on this planet) open loops.

If your current religious commitments lead to a defensive response to the 50,000 foot committments that others have made, then you may have some serious open loops to contend with before you're ready to engage constructively with anyone else on the planet at this altitude. This thread got off on the wrong foot by suggesting that "why am I on this Planet?" can be honestly discussed by excluding anyone else on the planet. I think it's great that GTD assumes that everyone on the planet has legitimate access and opportunity to answer these particular open loops. Can't get more big tent than that. And isn't the view great from up here?

It seems to me that every religious text is an attempt by humans to close those 50,000 open loops once and for all, and it's tempting to think that those of us living today could just graft them onto the present and not have to do the executive GTD thinking ourselves about the issues they address. I haven't seen any clear evidence that living "by the book" so to speak closes those loops without personally wrestling with questions like, If God is speaking to us through these religious texts, why does each one claim to be the sole source?" or "How can God be on each side of wars (as each set of warring children claim) between his/her children?" You won't find uncontradicted answers in the religious texts themselves so no fair proof texting.

Here's another thought. If your purpose on this planet is to save all souls from damnation, then I represent a particularly recalcitrant open loop for you since I'm with the Pope on that one, that hell does not exist as a place we need to be saved from.
Pack Matthews

KAM

02-05-2007, 02:13 PM

cdevidal says he won't return here, but for the benefit of innocent by-standers, I would like to offer my point of view. (home sick today and allowing myself all manner of wasted time)

My guess is that cdevidal is pretty young. At any rate, he is immature, both socially and spiritually. He's careless about his language in a public forum, thereby subjecting his faith (and mine) to public scorn. He refuses to acknowledge that his comments are hurtful to some, and imprudent for purposes of winning over others.

That said, I commend his desire to think about the use of GTD and his faith. Despite his other flaws, as I see them, this does speak of a desire for integrity (in the sense of wholeness, an undivided state, or unity of character).

The claim that GTD is purely secular is not a good answer to cdevidal's question. If the God that he says he believes in actually exists, then nothing is purely secular, as the term is used today. Look up the Latin origins of the word to see what I mean; this world is no less God's world, theologically speaking.

But, also, if the God that he says he believes in exists, then this God's attributes and works speak to his question. Everything that is, is good because created by God. That's not to say that the truths and principles captured in GTD, or anywhere else for that matter, cannot be misused. They can be. And that's not to say that they are neutral. They're not. They are good but can be misused.

I happen to hold to a demonological conception not completely different from cdevidal's. The difference is probably this. While I believe in personal spirits, good and evil, I also believe that anything can become a de facto "god" or idol when it takes a higher place in the divinely-established order of things than it ought, and I think that's the real issue here. Some readers probably know of GTD fans that build their lives around GTD to an extent that DA himself would disown. (Remember the SNL sketch where William Shatner visited a Trekkie convention and told them all to get a life?)

We're not Manicheans, cdevidal, my friend. The battle we wage is not between relatively balanced forces of good and evil. Anything given over to evil is stolen, and misused, not evil by design. GTD's full of good advice. And all truth is God's truth.

So it is truthfully written, "To the pure, all things are pure."