Time spent on GTD overhead, integration of GTD with other approaches to life

[oasis]

I'm 3/4 through the book and curious to hear other's thoughts on two points not addressed (so far):

1) How much time do people typically spend on GTD overhead? I often feel like I spend an inordinate % of time reviewing lists and calender...what is a reasonable range? 1% of work time? 10%? 30%?
How does this depend on job description? Someone who's job consisted entirely of management might conceivably spend 100% of thier time on GTD overhead, their own lists and those of others?

I probably spend 15-20% of my total work time managing lists and reference in my existing, pre-GTD honed system.



2) Really following GTD from 50k feet to runway (or the other way around) seems functionally like a life philosophy...a secular religion of sorts.

It seems as though it fits best with certain personality types, occupations, and cultures It fits me pretty well, for instance, but I know plenty other folks who I can't see going far down this road.

I'd like to hear more about:

=Who does GTD fit? How to adapt? What use is it, if any, to spacy, artistic people? Non-linear thinkers?

=What other approaches to life does it dovetail with, and how? When do you set aside your lists and just steer by gut? (What are limitations of GTD for all folks? LOVE and GTD thread http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5723 had me in stitches)

Yours,

Art

[kewms]

Be careful to distinguish between GTD overhead and time that you'd have to spend anyway. Adding an NA to your lists is GTD time, but processing the Inbox item that created the NA is not.

I spend less than 15-30 minutes a day reviewing my lists, plus an hour or two at the Weekly Review. Processing my inboxes takes as much as another two hours, depending on how much stuff has come in and how strictly I follow the two-minute rule. I think it's normal to spend more than this if you are setting up a new system, but things should settle down quickly.

If you're spending 20% of your work time on GTD overhead, it might be time to take a hard look at your system and figure out why it's so inefficient.

Katherine

[Max]

1) I have no idea really. I do know I get more done using GTD, daily I spend no more time that without on overhead, but I do spend more time doing weekly review and planning.

2) It not a philosophy, it is a tool for managing you life no matter which philosophy or religion you subscribe to.


No, GTD is not for everyone but anyone can benifit from it. A spacy, artistic person can use it to be not so spacy on things like appointments, for example. Those who benefit from it most are those types that adapt it to their situation and stick to it.

[/QUOTE]

[Rainer Burmeister]

There are about 10 hours per day that I’m actually doing something productive, or constructive, or creative stuff (8 hours at work and 4 hours at home and elsewhere) on Mondays through Fridays and on Weekends about 10 hours. That sums up to about 60 hours per week.

Five daily reviews (0.5 hour each) and two weekly reviews (about 1.5 hour at work and 1 hour at home) sum up to 5 hours of „GTD-time“.

This gives 5 / 60 = 8 %.

Rainer

[Rainer Burmeister]

2) Really following GTD from 50k feet to runway (or the other way around) seems functionally like a life philosophy...a secular religion of sorts.
Going from 50k feet to runway never was a problem to me, this is just the way an introverted, intuitive person (INTJ) like me lives. My problem was D.A.'s bottom up approach. Solved this problem by defining a gtd-project as what I call a "work package" : a series of maximum six actions that belong to a goal which is part of a real project (20 k level).

So, when I work, I don't go bottom up nor top down , but mentally scan my memory for that several dozens of work packages that are usually part of my work, and then decide which work package would be the right lever to start with that real project at hand. And then "filling in the blanks" with real names, dates, locations, devices etc gives my the actions that need to get done.

When confronted with a problem I usually don't ask "What's the next action?" , but I ask "What's the right leverage here?" and after I've found a feasible pattern of work the actions follow quite naturally or instinctively.

Rainer

(Don't try this at home, if you don't have a strong introverted intuition.)

[AdamMiller81]

Just found it interesting, noticed you were also an INTJ. Made me start to wonder what the breakdown is for users of GTD, considering INTJ is among the rarer types in the general population.

[apinaud]

My approach to this is even more simple.

I use to be in de office 12-14 hours plus the house chores, and working on the weekends.

I am in the office 8-9 hours, go to the gym, has loose more than 90 pound, do not work on the weekends...

I do not care if I spend 50% of my time in GTD, no matter how much time I spend now I get 8-9 hours @work, 3-4 hours @home and around 30 @weekend!

Simply priceless.

[gtderik]

I am also an INTJ.

[Rainer Burmeister]

Just found it interesting, noticed you were also an INTJ. Made me start to wonder what the breakdown is for users of GTD, considering INTJ is among the rarer types in the general population.
If you mean the breakdown from 50 k level to runway for an INTJ, well, that would be an interesting thing to know. Okay, I'll give it some thought on the weekend, and hopefully will post a suggestion here next week.

Rainer

[AdamMiller81]

If you mean the breakdown from 50 k level to runway for an INTJ, well, that would be an interesting thing to know. Okay, I'll give it some thought on the weekend, and hopefully will post a suggestion here next week.

Rainer

It wasn't originally, it was more of an question of seeing if the proportional representation of GTD people was any different from that of the general population, but actually, your idea sounds very interesting, so I look forward to seeing what you come up with!!! :)

[jkgrossi]

This might not be helpful (it might to someone, so I'll throw it out there anyway), but my answer to question #1 is "as much as I need to in order for me to get comfortable with all that I'm currently doing, need to be doing and not doing."

I heard David say something recently that really hit home for me regarding the amount of time you're spending on "system overhead" specifically realted to the weekly review. It went something like, "if you're not doing weekly reviews, you're doing weekly reviews all the time... just not very well".

Jim

[webrover]

Another INTJ here.

[Cikub]

I can't remember exactly what I am except I was obviously an "I" while the other three were virtually flat/neutral between the two types. A co-worker saw my score and said, "Good heavens! How do you get anything done?"

I've secretly blamed my lack of productivity on it ever since.

C

[sribri]

I am INTJ with J being very neutral and feedbacks for me from my supervisors have been that I was not good with follow throughs and working on multiple projects.

GTD has solved both of these issues to a great extent for me.

THX
Sri

[Rainer Burmeister]

There seem to be two INTJ-specific problems at work:

01) INTJs sometimes confuse their personal interests with their commitments (commitment in terms of "emotionally engaged self-obligation") and spend too much time on features that contribute very little to the goals of their commitments (e.g. perfectionism).

02) INTJs sometimes have problems to distinguish between thinking/knowledge and action and thus loose track of time (e.g. missing deadlines).

My experience is that in both cases GTD can be used to get clear about your commitments and actions.

Rainer

[AdamMiller81]

Thanks for the analysis Rainier, definitely intersting. I hadn't really thought about it, but those can both be things that happen, and now when I look at it retrospectively, they have decreased since I started with GTD (at least when I'm on the wagon), and generally, if I find I'm leaning a little too far over the side of said wagon (or being dragged along behind it), its usually one of those, or a combination of those, that can be the culprit.

[Queen Sarah]

There seem to be two INTJ-specific problems at work:


02) INTJs sometimes have problems to distinguish between thinking/knowledge and action and thus loose track of time (e.g. missing deadlines).


Rainer


I'm also an INTJ, and at this moment I am risking being late to work because this thread caught my attention... :::shutting down the computer:::

[wordsofwonder]

I seem to alternate between INFP and ENFP, depending on the day.

As for the question about system overhead, I would say that I spend about the same as other people: an hour or two a week on my reviews, and maybe 15-30 minutes a day on GTD-related tasks that I wouldn't be doing if I wasn't doing GTD. On the other hand, as a rule I recoup far more in increased productivity, clarity and focus than I spend on system maintenence.

If you feel like you're spending too much time maintaining your system, perhaps it's time to look at how you're doing so and where things could be simplified. I'm generally a big believer in the principle of Do the Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work (http://c2.com/xp/DoTheSimplestThingThatCouldPossiblyWork.html), and I've done a variety of experiments toward simplifying my system of late. In particular, I tried a week or so of GTD with each of Agendus (www.iambic.com/agenduspremier/palmos/) and Datebk6 (http://www.pimlicosoftware.com/datebk6.htm) on my Palm, before returning to NoteStudio (http://www.dogmelon.com.au/ns/). For me, NoteStudio is the simplest thing that works, so that's what I keep coming back to. For others, the simplest thing is a sheet of paper in a notebook, or a stack of 3x5 index cards.

But starting simple and adding just as much complexity as it takes to get the job done is a lot easier than starting complex and trying to pare away barriers, I think.

-- Tammy

[Rainer Burmeister]

It wasn't originally, it was more of an question of seeing if the proportional representation of GTD people was any different from that of the general population, but actually, your idea sounds very interesting, so I look forward to seeing what you come up with!!! :)
Tried to come up with something special for the INTJ, but it looks quite similar to the default GTD levels of review:

50,000+ feet: Life and Purpose of Life (review every year)
40,000 feet: List of three- to five-year goals (review every six months)
30,000 feet: Lists of Current Job Responsibilities, Roles (Professional and Personal), and
one- to two-year goals (review every three months)
20,000 feet: List of Current Areas of Focus and Projects (PM) (review monthly)
10,000 feet: List of Current GTD-Projects, Work Packages and Deliverables (review weekly)
Runway: Current action lists and checklists (review at least daily)

It would be more interesting to take a look a the purpose of life for an INTJ.

Here is my suggestion for an INTJ’s purpose of life. Please note that it isn’t my purpose of life nor any other special person’s purpose of life, but more a general purpose of life for an INTJ type of personality.

INTJ’s Purpose of Life

· Create ideas, intuitions, and visions about the world.
· Seek for understanding, knowledge and accomplishment.
· Build structure in the INTJ’s life (system builder).
· Respect those who share the INTJ’s life, especially their intelligence and competence.
· Practise meaningful exchange of ideas.
· Value and appreciate structure, order, knowledge, competence, and logic.
· Sort intuitions and build systems in order to meet identified goals or needs.
· Achieve a good amount of life wisdom to gain social or political influence.


Hope this makes sense to you.

Rainer

[AdamMiller81]

Looks great, thanks for the insight. Definitely something I'll be thinking on.

[1drummergirl]

Thanks for the info...I'm INTJ as well. ;-)

[shadowfirebird]

How do I find out if I'm an INTJ? It certainly sounds as if I am...!

GTD is a perfect fit for my life. I have little short term memory, and continually worry about dropping things from my long-term memory. Picking up the collection habit was a doddle - and I got immediate stress-relief from it. Now I just look at my context lists, no worry at all...

I would say that I was the ideal personality type for GTD - an absent-minded worrier who loves to be organised....

[shadowfirebird]

It would appear that I am an INFP...

(More as an I-figured-it-out rather than in case you were interested!)

[wordsofwonder]

How do I find out if I'm an INTJ? It certainly sounds as if I am...!

The *real* Meyers-Briggs Type Inventory (MBTI) is a copyrighted and proprietary test administered by psychologists, but you can get a decent approximation from tests like this one:

http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html

or

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

-- Tammy

[Todd V]

It's hard to say who most 'fits' with the GTD workflow. David Allen even jokingly points out in his book that the people it connects with the most often aren't the people who need it the most.

There are two things that I think are helpful.

#1: The 80/20 Rule.
Though not as prominent in the GTD books it is often found in similar literature and I think this is generally a good rule of thumb for most things in life. In general you should only be spending about 20% of your time "reviewing" your GTD inventory (say only 2 hours on a Friday afternoon) -- you should spend the rest of the time 'doing', following up, or doing whatever you want because you already know what it is you're not doing; and doing whatever you want right now is fine because you know that.

#2: The Percents Are Illusory.
There is a mental gap between what the mind sees when it looks over at the pending tasks, obligations, and actions sitting in a folder and the actual fact of how long it will take to get those things done. I remember when I was first getting into the GTD workflow I used to "cringe" looking over at my Read-Review folder which was amassing things for me to read. It was almost 2" thick with papers. I often wouldn't look at it for weeks. The reason is because -- and this is unique with Reading material in comparison to Next Actions -- is because it still mentally feels like "piles of piles". And thus the mind begins to go numb to the reading file because it doesn't want to process what it perceives as an insurmountable amount of time it will take to wade through it all (not to mention how boring some of that stuff will probably be to read). But my wife and I ended up having to take a two and a half hour train ride to visit some friends, I took the folder with me, and because I had the folder with me, I just decided to begin reading through as much as I could. I finished the entire folder before the end of the train ride!! And I thought it would take me at least a couple of weeks to get through it all. This is proof that there is a mental gap between how much time we think it takes to review something or to get something done and the reality of it. And so developing the habit of just stepping into the doing of it can really help shatter that perception, which is often just an illusion keeping us from reaching the other side of "done".

I still remember what it was like to stand in front of an Inbox with over 60 items in it (or my email with over 100 unread emails) and thinking "I'm never going to get through all of this!" Now having been processing my inboxes one item at a time as David Allen suggests in his books, I now look at my inbox and my email and think "No problem, this will only take 10 minutes."

So this is just something I've discovered -- the mental gap -- the illusion between the perception and the reality. It actually takes a lot less time to get it all done or to review the entire inventory of one's projects and actions. It's hard to believe at first, but it's like the first time one gets their inbox to empty. It seems like it takes the longest the first time (but even then, once it's empty, it didn't take as long as you thought it would). And as the inbox is regularly emptied and the habit is developed the mind begins to feel less encumbered by the pile of stuff because it now has a better sense of how long it will actually take to get IN to empty. And even if the mind still doesn't know how long it will "actually" take, the regular experience of seeing things take less time than previously thought begins to reinforce itself, and that makes it just that much easier each time to step into it. The same is true with the rest of the GTD workflow.

Todd V