Incremental start of GTD

[wbc]

Hi there!

I have a question about the incremental start of a GTD system:

What is more important to get as a habit, maintaining the project list or the
next actions lists?

To explain it a little, I had a little discussion with a friend and he had the
opinion that it is better to facilitate the habit of maintaining NA/ToDo-Lists
first. I think it is better to have the habit of maintaining project lists first
because you have at least all you projects gathered in one place.

What is your opinion? Would you agree that having a project list is the first
step and having todos or next actions tied to the projects is the second step
in an incremental approach of starting GTD?

Hope to receive interesting insights...
-wbc

[ggoldman]

I don't see how you short cut it. It seems to me people have traditional to do lists, which according to GTD don't really work. I think to really do a jump start of GTD like the book says you need lists of projects, next actions and waiting for as a beginning point.

[tfadams]

I would say the habit to get into would be doing a regular Weekly Review. The first (possibly most important) step of getting everything out of your head and onto paper will drive the Projects list and NA lists. The Weekly Review will tie your NAs to Projects (or vice versa). Keep in mind that a Weekly Review may need be done more often when you are getting into GTD.

[Brent]

Which is better, eating right or exercising? Should I first stop eating junk food, or should I get into an exercise program?

:-) Seriously, both are important. What does it matter which is more important? We need to do them both anyway.

[sdann]

When you create a project list, right away list the next action for each project. I don't see how you can create one without the other. At that time you will list your waiting fors and your someday/maybes. It is impossible to say which to focus on first.

[kewms]

I agree with other posters: it's not a terribly meaningful question, since until you have both you aren't really doing GTD.

However, the NA list is the one I carry with me and review most often, and the one that would take the most time to recreate if it were lost. That says to me that the NA list takes the most load off my brain, and therefore gives the biggest boost for the effort expended.

The Project list, in contrast, usually only gets reviewed once a week or so. The big, high priority projects tend to capture substantial mind share whether I review the list or not, and I could recapture most of the lower priority projects by simply walking around my house and office for a few minutes.

Put another way, I'm unlikely to forget that I have a 20,000 word report due in a few weeks. I could easily forget that the NA for that report is to review my outline to check the status of the key components. Hence, the NA list is more critical.

Katherine

[kewms]

Which is better, eating right or exercising? Should I first stop eating junk food, or should I get into an exercise program?

:-) Seriously, both are important. What does it matter which is more important? We need to do them both anyway.

Because radically changing your diet and your lifestyle at the same time is extremely difficult. Incremental changes are easier to implement, and incremental success provides motivation for further changes. Also, a given individual might have dietary (or exercise) habits that are either particularly awful or particularly easy to fix.

Similarly in the productivity context, small steps are better than no steps. Minor improvements are still better than the status quo.

Katherine

[MrProactive]

I agree with Katerine; you have to have small victories in order to keep moving forward with lots of things, be it weight loss or GTD.

Do * something * (one or the other) to get started; get it in place; make it a habit, then grow it. If you go overboard up front, you will get frustrated and quit.

sdann has another point; kind of a "double bonus" -- if you do make your Project List, ponder the Next Action right then and there and put that on your Next Action list.

However, again, K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple {what * is * the last "S" for .... I always forget) is the best bet.

[abhay]

I would like to differ a bit here. But trust your intuition and heed this only if it sounds good to you.

Unless you process something, you won't know whether it's a project or an action or an actionable at all. And probably action lists and project lists are incomplete without each other. Having an action list consistent with the project list which does not reflect all the projects (for the time being) is IMHO better than one ambitious list without the other.

So my suggestion would be to set up an inbox, and start collecting "stuff". (I hope you know what DA calls "stuff"; if not, please write back!) Start developing the habit to write down anything that may be important to you, whether actionable or not, and put it in the inbox.

Allot some time (may be half an hour to begin with) every day for processing if you don't get unscheduled free time. Go through the processing of items in your inbox(es). Let it generate whatever it generates: projects and associated next actions, standalone next actions, waiting-for's, reference material, appointments, and so on.

Since we are doing it incrementally, for a couple of weeks (or months), it won't reflect the complete inventory of commitments and other things that you have. But eventually it will. Also allocate some time at least every week to process items in your current system in the GTD way so that they are appropriately classified as above.

That will be some athletics working from these new action lists and your current system, but it will reduce with time.

Hope I make sense,

Abhay

[TesTeq]

Would you agree that having a project list is the first step and having todos or next actions tied to the projects is the second step in an incremental approach of starting GTD?

No, I would not agree. Period. It does not make any sense to have Projects without Next Actions (except for Someday/Maybe projects) and there is no way to have Next Actions if you have not defined Projects with their successful outcomes.

[scott.stephen]

Hello,

More important? NA or project? Neither. I do not believe that even the most basic system can function without both. They go hand-in-hand. How could you possibly know what should go on your NA context lists if you don’t even know what projects you have going? Ok, maybe the non-project, single action items, but who only has those?

I would have to say the only thing incremental about GTD is reading the book. Unless of course you are a speed reader and get though it in one go.

I guess there is one more thing that could be “incremental” about GTD, and that is the evolution from simply implementing the system, understanding the system, putting together “your” system, and mastering your system.

Regards,
Scott STEPHEN

[wbc]

First of all thank you for the posts so far.

Kathrin you wrote:

I agree with other posters: it's not a terribly meaningful question, since until you have both you aren't really doing GTD.
...

To explain it a little more in detail, I totally agree with you, in order to have a
GTD system you need both NAs and project lists. But my standpoint was, if
you put the GTD methodology aside, it is more important to have a project
list. Why? Because if you maintain a complete project list you actually see all
your commitments in one place and have a feeling about the volume and time
you have to commit to more projects. Or am I totally wrong?

If you then add NAs lists after having all projects in one place gives you the
power of GTD.

But in the step of learning GTD it is very important to identify and clarify the
projects (as GTD defines a project) first - right? Or do you think that you can
not untie the project list from NA lists and the other way round? So to start
maintaining the lists it is better to have an incomplete project list and a set
of NA lists and adding more and more projects to the system over time?

By the way the discussion with my friend started after we both listened to the
GTD connect audio file "Getting started - projects" (I think this was the title).
If you are a connect member you could listen to this audio file and tell me if
I understood it completely wrong.

-wbc

[Day Owl]

K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple {what * is * the last "S" for .... I always forget)...

Either "Stupid" or "Sweetie" according to your preference.

[Brent]

Because radically changing your diet and your lifestyle at the same time is extremely difficult. Incremental changes are easier to implement, and incremental success provides motivation for further changes.

Where in my post did I say otherwise?

[Tom Shannon]

Hi there!

I have a question about the incremental start of a GTD system:

What is more important to get as a habit, maintaining the project list or the
next actions lists?

WBC,

There is an entire chapter in the book about how to get started with GTD. Basically you throw everything into a basket before you even decide what a project or action even is.

Too many people try to shortcut this step. I, personally, think that this is a great way to guarantee failure. Take a day and do it the way its described and you will get off on the right foot. Do it another way at your own peril.

Tom S.

[kewms]

But my standpoint was, if
you put the GTD methodology aside, it is more important to have a project
list. Why? Because if you maintain a complete project list you actually see all
your commitments in one place and have a feeling about the volume and time
you have to commit to more projects. Or am I totally wrong?


As I said in my original post, I work from my NA list and find it far more critical. YMMV.

Katherine

[sdann]

By the way the discussion with my friend started after we both listened to the
GTD connect audio file "Getting started - projects" (I think this was the title).
If you are a connect member you could listen to this audio file and tell me if
I understood it completely wrong.

Where on the Connect site can I find that? I believe I listened to it already, but let me know where so I can relisten.

My belief was always that you want to get your committments down first. Whether or not those are projects are dependent on whether the committment has more than one step. DA also states that you should right away id an NA for each new project you are adding to your active project list. Hence, projects really should not be on your active project list (in an ideal GTD world) if they don't have an NA. Therefore, I have to agree with Katherine, if we are putting it down to the most basic of all.

[John Forrister]

Hi there -- I think this may be what you're referring to:
http://www.davidco.com/connect/getstarted/5

[dragynox]

If you're going to do an incremental approach to GTD (as I am), you should use the various levels that David talks about in the book.
Runway - current actions (daily)
10,000 ft - current projects (weekly)
20,000 ft - current responsibilities (monthly)
30,000 ft - 1-2 year goals (quarterly)
40,000 ft - 3-5 year goals (annually)
50,000+ ft - career, purpose, lifestyle (annually+)

Get the Runway and 10,000 ft working. That is hard enough. Then after you have these as a habit, tackle the more life direction type decisions that come out of the 20,000 ft and higher areas.

I agree with pretty much everybody else though that you can't effectively do the Runway stuff without the 10,000 ft stuff. the first step for me in GTD was task and projects. The other stuff can get added on once you've got these two working.

Jake

[12hourhalfday]

Take a look at this post. It might help.

Starting GTD if you Can't stop Working (http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7996)

[Tom Shannon]

Take a look at this post. It might help.

Starting GTD if you Can't stop Working (http://www.davidco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7996)

I noticed that the OP posted in this thread late last month so she/he is certainly aware of it. Apparently he/she is still looking for a good shortcut.

Tom S.

[12hourhalfday]

I noticed that the OP posted in this thread late last month so she/he is certainly aware of it. Apparently he/she is still looking for a good shortcut.

Tom S.

Totally right, I really ought to read the entire post. :)
The thing is, their is no shortcut. Projects and Next actions are the key to the system, you can't pick one list over the other.

[Tom Shannon]

Totally right, I really ought to read the entire post. :)
The thing is, their is no shortcut. Projects and Next actions are the key to the system, you can't pick one list over the other.

Could not agree more. If I remember right the book says as much and having followed the instructions step by step there, I'd say that its well worth the time. If you can't commit a Saturday to this, you probably aren't committed enough to it anyway. Very, very few people are *that* busy.

Cheers,
Tom S.

[wbc]

Hi everybody,

wow the 3rd page of the thread already.. thank you for your replies so far.

Tom you wrote:

I noticed that the OP posted in this thread late last month so she/he is certainly aware of it. Apparently he/she is still looking for a good shortcut.
Tom S.
What does OP means? Original poster? And yes I am aware of the mentioned
thread because I posted in it. But I don't really look for a good shortcut because I am aware that there *is* no good shortcut. I am hopping on and
of the GTD wagon every now and then and I am now looking for a way to stay
on the wagon forever.

I thought that implementing GTD in a more incremental or organic way would
probably help me to stay on top of it. And as I listened to the mentioned audio
file I thought that I understood the meaning of project list the wrong way.

I reread parts of the book the last days and I have come up with the
following:

The "runway system" consists of the calendar, next actions lists and the waiting for list. The someday/maybe list is optional but can add value to the
system. The runway system has to be the first thing in place in order to work
the GTD way.

The "10 000ft system" consists of the project list and project plans for more
complex projects. This is the second step in implementing GTD in a incremental
way. But the GTD system is incomplete without the project list and therefore
most people set up a project list at the same time they start using context
list.

First steps to set up GTD in an incremental way are:

set up calendar
set up and lable next action lists with previously defined contexts
set up waiting for list
set up project list


If I am right so far are these the essential tools/lists to start. After having all
the lists you can process what comes in the "inboxes of life". Processing
means to clarify if something is a project (on project list) or a single action
(2 min rule or on one of the next action lists).

Next steps to set up GTD workflow:

process all current items in the inbox
put projects for cleaning up backlog on project list


And with these steps and a weekly review I should have a working version of
a GTD system - right?

The problem I had with the last implementations I made was that I did a
mindsweep first collected all in IN processed all stuff had projects and NAs
on my lists worked with them and stopped looking at them. So now I wanted
to start small and let the system grow over time.

And I have to say rereading the book is very helpful. I appreciate if you post
comments or additional thoughts which might be helpful to me - and others.

Cheers
Wolfgang

[abhay]

I think I would still say this: action lists and project lists and other things are not different sequential steps. As you process your stuff, for each item you will have to make a choice as to whether it is a project or just a standalone action or a reference or so on. You cannot *first* make one list and *then* make another. All the lists will grow depending upon what "stuff" you have.

In the same spirit, I will not say that there are different systems for "runway" and "10,000 feet", etc., it's one single consistent system that manages reminders for you at all levels.

Starting up in one shot (a day or two) is always better. But if you still decide you want an incremental start, process your current stuff incrementally, and let the stuff decide what it is! And stuff is anything that your mind has, not just the things that are currently hot.

Truly speaking, I agree with scott.stephen: "I guess there is one more thing that could be “incremental” about GTD, and that is the evolution from simply implementing the system, understanding the system, putting together “your” system, and mastering your system."

Abhay

[VictoriaPark]

When I was first starting on GTD I wanted to try and ease into it, the same as the poster here seems to. In fact I think I did do a couple of "baby steps" such as trying to get in to the collection habit and tracking actions a bit better.

But - I decided to take a leap of faith and trust David when he said that you have to do the two day "big bang" launch and throw yourself into it. And I found that he was 100% right, and that I felt immeasurably more in control of my life after doing it.

I now find myself in a position where I fell off the GTD bandwagon for a while. I still worked constantly with Next Action lists, but my collection got ropey (especially on non-work items) and reviews weren't happening. I've since got most of the habits back in working order, but I'm acutely aware that actually, I need to do a re-launch in exactly the same fashion as the first one. I'm just conflicted about whether to hold off on doing it until after my current planned house move...

[Baylo]

I think I would still say this: action lists and project lists and other things are not different sequential steps. As you process your stuff, for each item you will have to make a choice as to whether it is a project or just a standalone action or a reference or so on. You cannot *first* make one list and *then* make another. All the lists will grow depending upon what "stuff" you have.

Abhay

I completely agree with this. I tried to implement GTD incrementally and it just didn't work for me. Here's why:

* A project list without the associated next action is nothing but a list of dreams that won't happen. (Or if they do, it won't be because the list helped in any real way, but because it was on your mind anyway)

* A next action is related to a project anyway (though the project may be so small there's only the one action required). If there is no real project, ie a goal to accomplish, then why are you doing the action in the first place?

What I realized fairly quickly was that as I worked through my 'stuff' everything fell onto the NA and Projects lists quite easily. It was actually much more efficient to do them both together, and clarified my thinking in the process. For example, it became obvious which 'to do's were the real 'next actions' that I should do, and which were simply additional future steps to add to the project plan. I have no doubt that I would have gained no benefit by only doing one list.

Mark

[Tom Shannon]

What does OP means? Original poster?


Yes.


I thought that implementing GTD in a more incremental or organic way would
probably help me to stay on top of it.


I'm sorry but I don't think that it does.



The problem I had with the last implementations I made was that I did a
mindsweep first collected all in IN processed all stuff had projects and NAs
on my lists worked with them and stopped looking at them. So now I wanted
to start small and let the system grow over time.

And I have to say rereading the book is very helpful. I appreciate if you post
comments or additional thoughts which might be helpful to me - and others.


In terms of implementing, I can only tell you that I closed my office door, tore up a bunch of paper and did it exactly as described in chapters 4-10 in the book. Paying particullar attention to the section entitled "Setting Aside Time" in chapter 4. :)

Having said that, many people here describe situations like yours described above. Most people describe it as being "overwhelmed" but "stopped looking at them" is ultimately the effect.

Different people handle this problem differently. My own answer was to make sure that things on my lists weren't just the ones that were possible but were actually things I might do. These are not the same. There are many possibilities but if I absolutely know there's now way I'm going to get to it anytime soon, I don't want it in front of me.

Many of these items end up as ticklers and some day/maybes. Often this means really being brutal about trimming my lists. I try to decide what's most immediate and important fairly well in advance (at least a week) and get the rest out of sight until they move up the ladder. I fidn that if I do this, I can keep my lists under control and continue to work with them instead of dreading them because I've got so darned much on there to do.

Hope that helps,

Tom S.

[wbc]

Hi there!

Last weekend I had some time to reflect my thoughts about GTD and how to
ideally implement it in my life. First of all I think I know see why implementing
it as a big bang implementation is the best way to do it.



...
In terms of implementing, I can only tell you that I closed my office door, tore up a bunch of paper and did it exactly as described in chapters 4-10 in the book. Paying particullar attention to the section entitled "Setting Aside Time" in chapter 4. :)
...


Tom you are absolutely right, I have to set aside some time to start the GTD
process. I will start my "GTD 2008 system" at the end of this week because
I have Friday off and no other commitments :)

I have reread several chapters of the book, as I already mentioned, and I
think it is very useful to have the lists prior to the collection/processing
phase. I analyzed my work and defined my main contexts in order to prepare
my lists.

Do you know any pitfalls I might have to deal with while implementing my
system?

Cheers,
Wolfgang

[Brent]

There are as many potential pitfalls as there are people. :-)

Just do your best. We'll be here to help you with any problems you encounter.

[Karina]

Different people handle this problem differently. My own answer was to make sure that things on my lists weren't just the ones that were possible but were actually things I might do. These are not the same. There are many possibilities but if I absolutely know there's now way I'm going to get to it anytime soon, I don't want it in front of me.



Tom,

This paragraph really resonated with me, and with what I've been struggling with recently. My question is, where do you put those NAs that you decide you don't want in front of you because you know you won't get to them anytime soon?

Do they just stay in your someday/maybe list? To me, the fear with this would be that things that were important (but not important right away) would get lost in with things that were much more optional.

Or, do you have a separate list/context for this type of task, so they're still easily accessible if you want them, and when you update your NA lists it's easy to look at those more important tasks in isolation from the someday/maybe and decide which ones to add to your main context lists? This sounds somewhat appealing to me, but I worry that it might be too easy to get in the habit of just overlooking NAs on this list - basically having it end up a place where NAs go to die, or stay until they become too urgent to ignore.

I'm very interested to hear how you manage this!

Karina

[jrandall39]

Do they just stay in your someday/maybe list? To me, the fear with this would be that things that were important (but not important right away) would get lost in with things that were much more optional.

Karina,

FWIW, I'll weigh in and say that I too do what Tom does. I put on my Someday/Maybe list things that I can't commit to doing right now but are none the less important. I don't flag them in any way yet I have no trouble distinguishing them from other things that are nice but not essential.

- Jon

[ScottL]

Karina,

FWIW, I'll weigh in and say that I too do what Tom does. I put on my Someday/Maybe list things that I can't commit to doing right now but are none the less important. I don't flag them in any way yet I have no trouble distinguishing them from other things that are nice but not essential.

- Jon

I do this do, but I separate

@someday: things that I can't commit to doing right now but are none the less important.

from

@ maybe: things that are nice but not essential

[jesig]

ScottL, I think you may have just solved a huge problem I've been having with my someday/maybe lists. Wow. Very simple and very powerful.

[Tom Shannon]

I do this do, but I separate

@someday: things that I can't commit to doing right now but are none the less important.

from

@ maybe: things that are nice but not essential

This is a really good idea.

To answer Karina, I usually put things that I might or might not do on the Someday/Maybe list. I put things which I know I'm going to do in as a tickler to be addressed at a later date. The danger of doing the latter is that you end up just pushing things back and back and back as they pop up. Its a trap unless you actually at some point say, "OK, I've pushed this back three times. Am I going to do it or not?"

I think keeping a Someday list which is reviewed every week instead of keeping such things in ticklers is a good solution as well. I'll consider it.

Tom S