Anyone else not using a project list anymore?

[tominperu]

I did GTD for around 3 years with a project list.

I still use next actions with context, a weekly review, prompt lists, different altitudes, inbox to empty each day, and I think DA's system of filing without hanging files has massive benefits.

But, and perhaps it's a big but, for the last year I haven't been using a project list, which is sort of a key part of GTD. It doesn't seem to be an issue. Eventually I decided that keeping a project list was just another part of the system to feed with not enough benefit to make it worthwhile.

I am curious to know if that this has been the experience of anyone else or if I'm the only one. DA once said he thought one of the most important things was to keep the project list up to date, which still worries me from time to time.

[Barb]

Well, I do think the concept of a Project List as a way to track moving parts in your world regardless of where they lie (task lists, calendar, project support material) is probably the biggest differentiator between GTD and other systems. For me, if I didn't have a project list I'd always be having to re-think "what's next" in order to stay on top of longer term projects.

Since Davidco has no police force that comes to your office/house and strips you of your rights to engage with other parts of the methodology, you can do whatever you want that works for you, I guess. But it seems to me if you felt completely confident in what you are doing, you wouldn't have taken the time to pose the question in the forum.

Good that you're still doing weekly reviews, but wouldn't having the project list as another "view" of all you have to do in a week be just a little bit helpful to you? I think of my projects list as just another way of looking at all of my tasks to be sure I haven't missed something.

It certainly does the job for me and it's such an established work habit, I probably couldn't drop it even if I wanted to.

[RoninTDK]

If you don't use a project list, how do you make sure you don't forget to work on one of your active projects? I suppose you do have an NA (or waiting for item) for each active project (because, by definition it isn't active if you don't) so do you just define a new NA whenever you finish the previous one and keep track of your projects that way?

I find the project list to be rather useful and quite easy to maintain personally :-) Maybe you're using a paper system? There you don't have the advantage of clicking on a project and seeing relevant data and corresponding NA's and waiting-fors.

[Oogiem]

Project lists is key for me. But my system generates it automatically I don't have to re-write anything, just decide if a given project is active or not.

Without a project lists I'd lose track of what the various things I'm working on are for. And with about 100 active projects the lists is critical to keeping me on track.

[tominperu]

Thanks for the responses.

Yes I do try to write a new next action after any next actions is completed. I developed the habit before I dropped the project list. I wouldn't recommend not having a project list to anyone new to GTD and I'm not certain it will always work for me but it seems to at the moment. I don't think I succeed in remembering to always put a new action but I'm pretty sure that I seldom lose projects for more than a few days. I tend to remember to have a next action for them.

I know this as when I did have a project list I would look at it during the weekly review and seldom find projects without next actions. On the other hand I would often find that there were next actions without projects (projects of more than one action). I would therefore spend time during my weekly review updating my project list in relation to my next action list. I realised after a while that this was me serving the system rather than the system serving me. As DA says, you don't do projects, you do next actions. A projects in a list is just a stake in the ground to make sure you keep coming up with next actions. Project should serve your next action list, not the other way around.

I'm not saying that I would never find a project without a next action but the time I would spend on the project list just wasn't worth it. I would probably remember the next action just from my prompt lists, brainstorming next actions or through a mind map.

So that's why I dropped the project list and I can't remember the last time I thought, "damn, how did I forget that, if only I had a project list."

My system is with Outlook and a Palm Centro with Chapura Keysuite.

For long term projects I have two big long term projects in my work but they are so big and long term that I will always have next actions for them. For other long term projects I suppose I often have something in a prompt list to make me think of next actions for those, so I suppose for some long term projects my prompt list acts a bit like a project list. For some other long term but slow burning projects I store projected actions in a note and those also gets picked up in weekly reviews.

Where I found the project list didn't work for me was for shorter term smaller projects. When I think of a new project I tend to instinctively write a next action to start it off. I didn't write the project in the project list. So, when I got to the weekly review the project wasn't in the list but the next action was on the action list.

As I seem to get away with not having a project list, the idea of having a list with lots of short term projects that change frequently over the weeks just seems a lot of effort for little gain.

In a sense its a bit like how when I started GTD and I wanted to have a link between all the project and next actions. After a while I just realised it was too much work and I was just working to feed the system but having less time to do stuff. Now having a project list feels a bit like that.

I am interested to know how often people look at their projects lists. Is it only in the weekly review as tended to be the case with me, or is it more often? Do you edit your project lists only in the weekly review or more often? Maybe if I found a different way of working with the project list I could go back to it and get more benefits from it.

[GTDWorks]

I look at my Projects List whenever I sense that things are starting to spin out of control or I become hazy on what my priorities are in the moment.

Of course, I review the list during the Weekly Review or during those free moments when I'm waiting and think to look a them.

At the start of my day, I do a quick scan of my Next Action Lists, and time permitting, might do a quick scan of my projects as well. I sometimes forget to add a Next Action to a Project because the day is racing by so quickly so a scan helps me sync things up mid-week.

Nothing sexy here, but touching base with my projects from time to time keeps me grounded.

[Barb]

I look at my projects list a couple of times a week. When I'm processing and come across something that is a project, I open one right then and there and decide the next action. I don't go through ensuring a next action project by project unless I'm either doing a WR or a mini-review during the week just to kind of ground myself.

Short answer: I look at it as often as I need to.

[GTDWorks]

Good answer, Barb.

[Barb]

Good answer, Barb.

Why, thank you sir!

[jimmo]

Since Davidco has no police force that comes to your office/house and strips you of your rights to engage with other parts of the methodology, you can do whatever you want that works for you, I guess.

Excellent!!!

To me that is one of the key problems I see with other systems. The "founder" is almost a messiah and people follow him/her blindly. David gives us a toolkit with GTD and we pick out the best tools for our work and environment.

I don't have a task list per se, but the tool I use (Thinking Rock, it's opensource and explicitly GTD-oriented) give me a look at what I consider projects. I can simply blend them out of the current view to see what I need to work on or change the view to show me the projects. Like Barb and GTDWorks I "touch base" as often as I need to and add actions as necessary.

In answer to RoninTDK, the software helps me keep track of what projects I have open, so I don't have an actual "list". I can display just the top-level and that serves as a kind of project list, but it also allows be to define sub-project, sub-sub-projects, etc.

I sometimes get the feeling I have "lost control" and need to sit down and go through the entire list, including all tasks. It serves as a brainstorm session, clean-up and re-assurance that I have things covered.

I have ADD, so I bounce around to all sorts of things. I must have at least 50 projects that I will probably never do, but still add them to my system so I don't forget. Otherwise I put too much energy is trying not to forget them. When I add them to the software, I have a bit of piece as I know they are in the system. In some cases, they have no next action, but just serve as a place holder (often for a loooooong time).

[Oogiem]

I am interested to know how often people look at their projects lists. Is it only in the weekly review as tended to be the case with me, or is it more often? Do you edit your project lists only in the weekly review or more often? Maybe if I found a different way of working with the project list I could go back to it and get more benefits from it.

I look at my project list briefly every morning, during the day when I come in for a break and when I switch contexts. I will also take another look at the list anytime I feel I need to. For me it's simple, I click one switch and I'm either in context mode with my next actions listed under each context or I am in project planning mode and I see a full list of projects. If I want to further refine my project lists I can look at all projects, active projects or only on hold (someday/maybe) projects. Switching between these views is one mouse click so it's easy. Typically I look at only the active projects but occasionally I have a thought or item to process I know is part of a project that is on-hold so I flip to that view and add it.

I have small projects too but I still add them to my system such that I can see them in the project list. True one off things go into one of the single action lists I keep under areas of focus. When I process new thoughts, actions and ideas I put them there unless it's an obvious project and for me making it a project with an action is really simple, takes less time to do than it does to write this out. It's 1 shortcut keystroke to make a project and another to add a next action.

I'll make, do and check off as completed, lots of projects that get created during the week, everything done and checked off before I ever get to a weekly review.

Recent example, I've had a DVD borrowed from a friend for 2 months who asked for it back this week. So I made a quick project "deal with DVD for Suzanne" 1st next action watch the movie, 2nd next action send e-mail discussing the movie to Suzanne, 3rd NA find padded envelope to ship DVD back to Suzanne, 4th NA package movie and get UPS label for it. 5th NA take package to feed store in town

Yes I made it that granular, I was procrastinating on that project. But once I spent 2 minutes & defined it I got it all done over the course of 3 days, well before a weekly review.

[sdann]

I look at the project list a few times a week just to make certain I don't get bogged down only in day-to-day projects only. I'll make my projects smaller although they belong to larger projects or even goals, just so I can check them off. They're not tiny, few-action projects (unless the project really is that small), rather just smaller cohesive units. In my brain, the checking-off makes me happy and feels like momentum.

[tominperu]

Not many people have said how often they change their project lists, i.e. add, take things off or perhaps change the wording.

I think I got frustrated at the work involved in updating my projects lists because of too much granularity - they were just too much maintenance. I don't think I could go back to a long list of small projects that goes out of date quickly, but I could go back to a shorter list of bigger projects that probably won't change much from week to week.

I'm not sure that it will be complete list though. It just seems to me we always have some small projects that last a few actions and a few days. To include those we really have to put them in the list when we start them (as Barb does) and then to have benefit from the list we would need to review the list on a daily basis (as Oogiem does). I just don't think there's enough benefit for me to do that again.

[sdann]

I'm going to say I add and remove about 7-9 projects a week, always having around the same amount of projects (between 35 and 45). My project list is electronic, so I don't rewrite it, instead I look at it almost daily like Oogie.

Honestly, although I like to say I use smaller projects, they rarely are just a few days and a few actions. It does help me to put a project on the list though, even for the small, few action ones. I actually finish them, whereas in the past out-of-sight out-of-mind (sad, but true). One example: in the past I've been pretty bad with keeping up with people. If I don't contact them right away, I put in a project (if it involves getting a card or address or what have you), which I can finish in no time in the next few days. By creating a project I'm committing myself to maintaining my relationships, which obviously links to the higher altitudes. This could be considered a silly simple project, but to me it is necessary.

[katy]

By creating a project I'm committing myself to maintaining my relationships, which obviously links to the higher altitudes. This could be considered a silly simple project, but to me it is necessary.

Well said ! The same happens to me. Whenever I create a project for something, I feel that I must follow it the next days (which is a good thing !)

[Oogiem]

Not many people have said how often they change their project lists, i.e. add, take things off or perhaps change the wording.

I think I got frustrated at the work involved in updating my projects lists because of too much granularity ....To include those we really have to put them in the list when we start them (as Barb does) and then to have benefit from the list we would need to review the list on a daily basis (as Oogiem does).

Well yesterday I edited my project list several times. After finding the dead sheep I had to add a bunch of projects to deal with state and federal notifications, tissue sample collection and delivery to labs and so on. A lot of the actions can't be done except during working hours so I needed to add them to my lists active starting today.

Because it's so simple to add, edit or delete a project with my system I don't find it cumbersome to have lots of projects that come and go regularly.

I don't think I've ever kept track of how often I add or delete projects or edit them. I just keep the list updated as part of my normal processing of my inbox.

[Roger]

My project list is just the stack of all my project folders. It's still a list and it still works just fine for me. It's a personal thing; I think I'd feel too nervous if I was misplacing projects for a couple days at a time on a regular basis.

[Pablo]

My system is with Outlook and a Palm Centro with Chapura Keysuite.




Tominperu

I also use Outlook which allows my projects to have more than one context.
Every NA I have is related to a project that is kept in the same location.
Example: I have a Project (Den Air Conditioner).
The context is always selected as *Project. The contexts for the NAs are determined by the NAs.

Just click the Categories button on the bottom of the Task window in Outlook & select the contexts that you want.

Cut lumber to size.
Build wood frame.
Gather drill & ladder.
Add trim to Den AC.

07/20/2009 Locate clamps. Context = *Project, @Parents
07/16/2009 Buy screw & L brackets, wood glue. Context = *Project, @Shopping
07/14/2009 Buy wood trim. 1 x 4 by 6'. Context = *Project, @Shoppping
07/12/2009 Measure around AC for trim. Context = *Project, @Home
07/03/2009 Remove old insulation foam. Context = *Project, @Home
6/08/2009 Attach den AC to Chains. Context = *Project, @Home
5/17/2009 Add hail screen to Den AC. Context = *Project, @Home
5/12/2009 Pickup screen from hangar for Den AC. Context = *Project, @Errand
4/25/2009 Purchase filter for Den AC. Context = *Project, @Shopping
4/23/2009 Uncover Den AC. Context = *Project, @Home

By using this method you don't have to keep a separate project list, the NA & Projects are in the same Task Window.

Btw: I use a Palm TX with the sw Beyond Contacts (Outlook clone).

Pablo

[RoninTDK]

I listened to a series of 8 podcasts of merlin mann talking with david allen about GTD and there's two quotes i'd like to share:

nr1: "...goes on the project list, which is one of the most essential parts of GTD."
So it seems DA thinks it's essential. Though if you say it's costing you more time than saving you time, I agree it's best to leave it out.

nr2: "Sure, you can use parts of the GTD system, but the GTD system is really intended to be used in it's entirety and leaving any piece out can greatly reduce its worth"
Seems DA really thinks you need to use GTD as a whole, not just pick parts from it. I think some of you may be confusing the concepts and the tools. DA has often said GTD is tool-agnostic. you can choice what tool you want to use. However, I haven't heard him say that picking and dropping concepts is a good idea. short example: according to GTD, you MUST have a tickler system. Whether that's 43 physical folders or calendar alerts doesn't really matter.

@Jimmo: I've just started using thinkingrock aswell! previously, I used mGTD, but the tiddlywiki system is slow and once you start inputting any decent amount of projects and tasks in it, it just becomes waaaay too slow. I'm liking thinkingrock so far, though sometimes it requires quite a few clicks to get something done (most annoying I find the fact that when i see a thought that i just want to discard, it still takes 3 mouse clicks to get it done)

[tominperu]

Tominperu

I also use Outlook which allows my projects to have more than one context.
Every NA I have is related to a project that is kept in the same location.
Example: I have a Project (Den Air Conditioner).
The context is always selected as *Project. The contexts for the NAs are determined by the NAs.

Just click the Categories button on the bottom of the Task window in Outlook & select the contexts that you want.

Cut lumber to size.
Build wood frame.
Gather drill & ladder.
Add trim to Den AC.

07/20/2009 Locate clamps. Context = *Project, @Parents
07/16/2009 Buy screw & L brackets, wood glue. Context = *Project, @Shopping
07/14/2009 Buy wood trim. 1 x 4 by 6'. Context = *Project, @Shoppping
07/12/2009 Measure around AC for trim. Context = *Project, @Home
07/03/2009 Remove old insulation foam. Context = *Project, @Home
6/08/2009 Attach den AC to Chains. Context = *Project, @Home
5/17/2009 Add hail screen to Den AC. Context = *Project, @Home
5/12/2009 Pickup screen from hangar for Den AC. Context = *Project, @Errand
4/25/2009 Purchase filter for Den AC. Context = *Project, @Shopping
4/23/2009 Uncover Den AC. Context = *Project, @Home

By using this method you don't have to keep a separate project list, the NA & Projects are in the same Task Window.

Btw: I use a Palm TX & with the Outlook clone (Beyond Contacts).

Pablo

I've tried this method in the past.

I personally find it tiresome to have to consider and click the right project, or subproject if the project list is very granular, each time I input an next action. I find it slows me down when it is often very important to process my inbox quickly.

This month I am trying to keep a simple very ungranular project list in notes. So far after one review there was a project that required a next action. I might have thought of it anyway later on during the review but I consider that a benefit. I will try and remember to let you all know how I get on - I suppose that should be a next action (I use post dated actions).

Thanks for the other feedback. Seems like there is no other people on this forum who have dropped the project list!

[tominperu]

I listened to a series of 8 podcasts of merlin mann talking with david allen about GTD and there's two quotes i'd like to share:

nr1: "...goes on the project list, which is one of the most essential parts of GTD."
So it seems DA thinks it's essential. Though if you say it's costing you more time than saving you time, I agree it's best to leave it out.

nr2: "Sure, you can use parts of the GTD system, but the GTD system is really intended to be used in it's entirety and leaving any piece out can greatly reduce its worth"
Seems DA really thinks you need to use GTD as a whole, not just pick parts from it. I think some of you may be confusing the concepts and the tools. DA has often said GTD is tool-agnostic. you can choice what tool you want to use. However, I haven't heard him say that picking and dropping concepts is a good idea. short example: according to GTD, you MUST have a tickler system. Whether that's 43 physical folders or calendar alerts doesn't really matter.

@Jimmo: I've just started using thinkingrock aswell! previously, I used mGTD, but the tiddlywiki system is slow and once you start inputting any decent amount of projects and tasks in it, it just becomes waaaay too slow. I'm liking thinkingrock so far, though sometimes it requires quite a few clicks to get something done (most annoying I find the fact that when i see a thought that i just want to discard, it still takes 3 mouse clicks to get it done)

I remember both those quotes, hence my worrying at times that I have dropped the project list. But I have to say I'm not sure I agree with him, if that is one develops the habit of thinking of the next action whenever you check off a previous completed action.

Luckily there aren't any GTD police to stop me thinking that or even writing it on the forum, and all credit to this forum for that. I remember DA also saying that he wasn't bothered if people didn't use GTD in his organisation as long as things didn't fall through the cracks. I have the same attitude to myself.

[kewms]

I personally find it tiresome to have to consider and click the right project, or subproject if the project list is very granular, each time I input an next action. I find it slows me down when it is often very important to process my inbox quickly.

Maybe you've got the wrong tool?

I abandoned hard project-NA links for exactly this reason. I didn't think the link gave me enough added value to make up for the extra maintenance overhead. But I still use a project list.

Katherine

[lolajl]

I can't see not using project lists. I tend to go off every which way, and if I had a long list of NA items and no way to group these I think I'd be lost at sea. Some NA items will not occur until I'm ready to do that particular group; for instance, I want to make a shawl out of some roving that Ruth S. gave me before she passed away, but I'm not ready to spin that roving up yet, however, I know there are certain steps I need to do for that project. Some of these steps are the same for other knitting/spinning projects. This is where having project lists really comes in handy.

[Oogiem]

Some NA items will not occur until I'm ready to do that particular group;

Hi Lola,

I agree, I have some steps that are the same for all sorts of projects but also really need a project list to keep me focused. I also need the project list to keep me in tune with why I am doing something.

I'm curious though, do you think that because some of your and my projects are so long term (spinning then making something from the yarn) that we approach projects differently?

I have long term projects that have taken years to complete, with individual next actions taking years.

[tominperu]

I said I'd post to say how I was getting on with a project list...

I'm still keeping it and looking at it about twice a week. I'm finding it useful and will continue trying to use one again.

For me the key is to keep the projects sufficiency large/broad to be useful as a reference in one or two weeks time. I think if they are two granular they don't work as reference as they change too quickly and basically by the time a new weekly review comes round the list should have changed so radically that it serves little purpose. One then gets stuck in feeding the GTD system rather than actually getting things done. Just my opinion.

Incidently Oogiem, I think having next actions that last years is a mistake. The idea of a next action is that one can do it in one block of time. That can be a week of time if you have little else going on in a particular eweek but if you have a lot else going on then such a large next action is for me a recipe for procrastination.

[Oogiem]

I think having next actions that last years is a mistake. The idea of a next action is that one can do it in one block of time.

My view of a next action is the next physical thing you can do that will move the project forward.

My long timeframe next actions are things like "Spin moy gown replica yarn."

That one action may take years to finish (which means I have enough to start weaving the fabric) so I can check it off but for the project "Make Moy gown replica" spinning is the actual next physical action I can take. I can't go further until I have the yarn.

When I have projects where I am procrastinating I will change the next action to something like "spin 1 bobbin full of shooting sock yarn singles in cream Shetland from Moget's Brother" but that's only if I find I am resisting the project. Often it's because I didn't define the action well enough. In the above example the action spin yarn for shooting socks stayed on my NA list for about a month with no progress. I caught the problem in a weekly review and realized that I hadn't decided what roving to spin or whether I needed a single or a plied yarn. Once that project planning was done I could more carefully define the next action so it will get done.

In the case of the Moy gown, I know what I plan to use, I have the combed tops for it and I know all the details about what I am trying to duplicate so all that's left is spin it.

When I look at my NA lists and decide what to work on based on time, energy, priority etc. I can decide on the fly if I am up to the exacting technical work to do that type of yarn or do I need to pick a more mindless activity (Spin more bulky yarn for rugs)

But if I'm not procrastinating on it, as in, I feel the project as a whole is making good progress, then why not have a next action that stays on the list for a long time?

My projects take years to complete, that's part of normal activity when you are working on things based on the seasons or for skilled handwork.

Think of quilting, next actions for a quilt might include define size, select pattern, select fabric, cut pieces, sew blocks, lay out blocks, add edge, decide on backing, decide on filler, pin quilt, quilt it, decide binding color and style, make binding, bind it. The entire process for most folks is going to take a year or 2. If you handsew and hand quilt everything the fastest person I know does 1 quilt in 18 months. That's pretty common for the sort of crafts I do.